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Mentoring Developers

Mentoring Developers

Helping software developers thrive

Episode 73 – These kid coders are cool!

November 28, 2019 By arsalan Leave a Comment

Timothy Amadi with his brothers Eugene and Daniel
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For parents of younger children, we understand how fleeting dreams and aspirations can be with our children. One minute they want to learn karate and then next minute they’re interested in basketball. One minute they want to be a teacher and the next a princess. One minute they want to be a policeman and the next a movie star.  

Dreams often change with children. We know this. It’s all part of their development and trying to figure themselves out. Yet, what if your young child approached you with persistence about wanting to learn to code? As interesting as that might sound, it would also be reasonable for you to have some initial reservations. After all, we’re talking about learning technology – complex technology, but what if that dream and plea continued to persist and through discovery, you learned that your young child had somehow developed a strong urge to code an app or a game or a website or a piece of software or … fill in the blank?  

What if your young child aspired to code? That’s exactly what happened with our next, young guest. Meet Timothy Amadi and his brothers, Eugene and Daniel. They are the coding trio of the Amadi family. Timothy started his journey at the young age of 9. He even went to a local coding boot camp to learn Ruby on Rails, JavaScript, and iOS … and Timothy codes without scaffolding! When he caught on with coding, he brought his brothers in and the trio collaborates together between project management, coding, and QR. Listen in today to episode 72 to hear the rest of the Amadi family’s coding adventures. Don’t miss this incredible episode! 

Timothy’s Bio:

Timothy Amadi is 10 years old and loves coding. He has built his own apps from the ground up including an eCommerce application, a blog application and even his very own version of Twitter. He also has an app that he is introducing to schools to help kids learn how to spell in a fun way using the computer, and he also participates in speaking engagements about coding, especially when it comes to inspiring other kids to learn to code as well.
 

Additionally, Timothy brought his older brothers into the fold of coding as well. Now, the trio collaborates on various coding projects and events and share in the excitement of their tech journey. The three boys have also authored nine books about coding that encourage other kids to try it out as well. Their mission is simple: “Everyone can code, including kids.” 

Episode Highlights and Show Notes:

Arsalan: Hi, Everyone. Welcome again to Mentoring Developers. I have a very special set of guests today. They are young kids who started programming when they were very little. Now, they are publishing multiple books on programming.  So, they have a consulting practice or some kind of business. Let’s talk to them about what this is all about. It’s super exciting. If you have little kids and you’re a parent or you’re a little kid yourself and in school and wondering how to get started with programming, or whether it’s something that kids can even do, then today’s episode is for you. 

Arsalan: Hi guys. How are you? Okay, so let’s get everyone’s name. I’m talking to Timothy right now. Timothy how old are you? 

Timothy: Eleven. 

Arsalan: Eleven. Okay. Can you guys get a little closer to the computer so that I can hear you better? 

Timothy: [inaudible]  

Arsalan: We’ll try to make do with what we can make do with. I couldn’t hear you very loudly, but that’s okay. So, that’s Timothy and who else do we have? 

Daniel: I’m Daniel. 

Arsalan: Hi, Daniel. How are you? 

Daniel: I’m 13 years old. 

Arsalan: You’re 13. Okay, and we have one more. 

Eugene: I’m Eugene Amadi and I’m 12. 

Arsalan: Eugene Amadi and you’re 12 years old. Wow. So, we have 11, 12, and 13. Is that right? 

Timothy: Yes. 

Arsalan: Wow. Okay. So, if you guys could speak a little louder so that we can hear you, that’d be better. Okay? If you can … if you can’t, then we’ll just look at your faces because that’s pretty awesome too. 

Arsalan: So, you guys were little kids when you decided one day to get into programming. How did you come to programming and then think about writing a book? Tell us a little about why you started and how you got here. 

Timothy: I began coding so that I could help my mom pay her bills. I tried making apps so that I could accomplish this task, but I didn’t know that I had to code to create an app. So, we went to school. There was this one time when we met with the student board and they told me that if you want to create an app, then you have to learn how to code. So, I told Mom that I wanted to code, but she didn’t believe me. So, she started buying books, but it still wasn’t enough. I looked all over the place for schools, but none of them had kids. Then we found one called Tech Talent South. It was our first code camp and lasted eight weeks. 

Timothy: So, on Day one, everyone was looking at us. We did ice breakers where we all introduced each other. 

Arsalan: How old were you at that time? 

Timothy: I was nine when that happened. 

Arsalan: Nine years old. Okay, and everybody else was probably in their twenties. 

Timothy: Yes, they were older. 

Arsalan: So, you were like “Oh, everybody is older” and they were like “What is this kid doing here?” How did you feel about that? Was that hard for you? 

Timothy: No. 

Arsalan: OK. So, tell me how your first day went in that code academy, that code school where you were the only kid and everybody else was a grown–up. On your first day, what did you do? 

Timothy: I answered a bunch of questions that they had. Mom sat with me during every class. The code camp was held one day per week. So, every day for eight weeks mom would sit with me during class. 

Arsalan: So, you started that and did that for eight weeks. What did you learn during those eight weeks? 

Timothy: I learned a lot. I coded many apps, they were mostly on the Ruby on Rails application. I built one without using scaffolds by using it on the Command line and trying to make a kind of class for Ruby. It was a quick way to make things easier when you started up the Rails app. I made an app complete without using it. 

Arsalan: Wow. That’s amazing, and you made it without using scaffolding? Scaffolding, for people who don’t know, is a way to quickly create code by starting a skeleton off of a program without having to start from scratch. It’s like having an empty canvas and then you have to fill in all the other pieces. So, a lot of people use scaffolding, but you said that you didn’t use scaffolding and you just basically wrote from scratch by using an empty document. You start by defining this class and defining this and defining that. Then, everything else you were able to do in Ruby on Rails, which is a web framework using a model view controller design principle. That is pretty advanced because there are lots of things that you would never have heard about, but you were able to do it. Did you find it hard to do Ruby on Rails in eight weeks? 

Timothy: Yes, when I started out. When I was making my own version of Twitter, I didn’t have time to lead the whole project, but then I re-did it and that’s why it’s successful on the Bug Zero website. 

Arsalan: Alright. So, you made your own version of Twitter. Twitter, for people who don’t know, is a website or an application that you can use to send small messages. You can use it to send it to the world or people can subscribe to it and certain people can listen to it. There’s a published subscriber model that can be pretty complicated. So, it’s not an easy project, but it’s a very interesting project. So, you were able to do that. Did you have to get a lot of help from people? How did you get across issues where you didn’t know how to do something or you were stuck or maybe had a bug? A bug is just a mistake, a defect, or something that didn’t work. How did you get around that? 

Timothy: I began by trying to figure out where it was going wrong. Then, I tried to debug it. If that didn’t work, then I would call on someone to help.  

Arsalan: Okay. Well, how did you know how to debug? 

Timothy: First off, sometimes we made a capitalization mistake or [it was a] syntax thing. Or, sometimes, it was just easy to figure out and I just fixed it. 

Arsalan: Did you read any books to better understand how to do advanced things in Ruby on Rails while you were the class for eight weeks. Did you have books to read or were you just going there, listening to lectures, and doing your projects? 

Timothy: The projects were all part of the courses in the boot camp and I did the projects. 

Arsalan: Okay. That’s wonderful. You were able to do certain projects on Ruby on Rails and now you’re learning about it. I have a kid who’s eight and she’s a little interested in programming, but not that interested. I know a lot of people because I teach kids programming as well sometimes in after-school programs and such, and very few kids have an actual interest in learning how to program, in my experience. Yet, maybe there are exceptional cases like you. So, what happens in a class is that they are bored – even if the class is meant for kids and we try to keep it interesting. We try to make it fun with games and interactive things. So, it’s not too boring because there are graphics and games and this and that. Yet, it is still hard for younger kids.  

Arsalan: You are nine years old and you are sitting in with adults who are not really interested in games and stuff. They’re basically trying to get a job. That’s why they are learning it. They’re not learning it just to have a skill. They want to get a job. So, they’re very serious. I’m assuming that the classes were probably not much fun. Yet, you really stuck with it. You didn’t give up. You weren’t bored. You weren’t like “I don’t want to do this. This is boring.” Why was it not boring for you? 

Timothy: It was exciting to see the end product and each time I achieved something, I felt accomplished. 

Arsalan: Yes, it feels great to do something. That’s wonderful that you’re able to do it. Are you a good student in general? 

Timothy: Yes. 

Arsalan: Are you a straight-A student? 

Timothy: Yes, often – pretty much. 

Arsalan: Okay. So, you get pretty good grades. So, you’re used to studying. Do you study … and do homework by yourself or do you need to have someone sit and make you do your homework? 

Timothy: No. 

Arsalan: Okay. So, you’re pretty independent. What I’m trying to understand is why you were able to do it when so many other kids are not able to do it. You’re independent. You like doing things yourself and you love to accomplish things. When you do homework, it feels great, right? You’ve finished it and when you go to school the next day you can show your teacher and the teacher is going to appreciate what you did. So, it feels good, right? 

Timothy: Yes. 

Arsalan: It feels good to be able to do it. It’s similar to programming. It’s dry and it’s not really that interesting sometimes. Sometimes it is and sometimes it’s not. Yet, when you do it, you feel great because when you have a problem, you solve it yourself. Sometimes you have help and that’s okay. Everybody needs help sometimes. 

Arsalan: So, now, eight weeks later did you feel like you were now a programmer or were you still feeling unsure of whether you could still do this? 

Timothy: I was still trying to find more with the program. So after … we went on to JavaScript class and after that, we had an iOS class, which on the last day Mom had a headache and we couldn’t go.  

Arsalan: Oh. Well, that happens. Mom had a headache and you couldn’t go, but you were still able to go through another eight weeks of JavaScript. That was eight weeks of JavaScript, was it?  

Timothy: Yes, that was JavaScript. 

Arsalan: That’s amazing. 

Timothy: It came before iOS. 

Arsalan: Then, after that, you did iOS and you took all of them except for the last class and that was because your mom was sick. That’s amazing. Wasn’t it hard for you? That is a lot. Most grownups don’t know those things. 

Timothy: It was very difficult though.  

Arsalan: Then why did you do it if it was so hard? You already knew Ruby on Rails. You already knew JavaScript. Why did you want to do iOS? 

Timothy: I just wanted to be able to show them that I could make a difference … that I had the potential to do great stuff. 

Arsalan: Okay, and you wanted to show this to whom? Your mother? Someone else? 

Timothy: Yes, mostly to my mom. 

Arsalan: That’s good. You wanted to show your mom “I can do this.” Your mom didn’t believe you in the beginning. Right? She didn’t think that you were serious about programming. What happened when you first told your mom that you wanted to do programming? 

Timothy: When I told my mom that I wanted to do programming? 

Arsalan: When you told her, you wanted to go to a program. In the pre-interview with my producer, you said that your mom didn’t actually take you very seriously at first. She didn’t know that you really wanted to do it. Then, something happened. You got some books. There was someone who helped you and you persisted and kept asking, and she finally found a place where you could go. You went to different places and they wouldn’t let you in, but then this particular program took you in. So, how was her reaction when you first talked to her about this? 

Timothy: I didn’t give up … I kept trying. If I wanted to make an app, I had to believe that I could do it. That’s when I first asked Mom. She slowly started seeing that I was serious about it. So, she bought me some books. I eventually made a game that 50 people across the world could play. 

Arsalan: You made a game that 50 people could play … together? At the same time? Is that what you mean?  

Timothy: Yes. 

Arsalan: How did you make that game? This was before you went to that code school, right? Was it before or after? 

Timothy: Before. 

Arsalan: You already made a game? Which programming language did you use to make that game with? 

Timothy: Lua 

Arsalan: Lua? Hmm. How did you learn Lua? 

Timothy: It was really simple. I just began a code to show what each thing did … function. 

Arsalan: Wow. How old were you at that time? Nine? When you did the Lua program? 

Timothy: Yes, I was nine. 

Arsalan: Wow. That is impressive and you’re like “I can do this, Mom, and look, I just made this program.” So, 50 people across the world can play this game simultaneously. It doesn’t matter what it was. The point is that you proved yourself and you really wanted to do it and that’s really amazing. A lot of kids can learn from this and say “If Timothy can do it, then maybe I can do it. It’s fun!” So, tell me what is so amazing about programming? Why do you like it so much? 

Timothy: I want to be able to make a difference in the world and show that kids are capable of doing it. 

Arsalan: Okay. You want to make a difference in the world. You want to prove that kids are capable of doing great things. So, do you think that you can make a difference by doing programming, that you can solve some problems using programming? 

Timothy: Yes. 

Arsalan: Okay. Yes, because when there’s a problem, software is often a way to go. Software is everywhere. You were trying to help your mother with something and that was why you wanted to do programming. Were you able to do that? Were you able to make that app that you wanted to make for your mom? 

Timothy: Yes. 

Arsalan: You did? Can you tell us a little about that app? 

Timothy: What app? 

Arsalan: You said that you wanted to do programming because you wanted to make something for your mother. That’s how you started. Do you remember that? 

Timothy: Yes. 

Arsalan: Were you able to make it finally? Sometimes that doesn’t work. You started with “Oh, I’m going to make an app for my mom to help her, but then, you know, you forgot. That’s okay. 

Timothy: I’m still trying to achieve that goal. 

Arsalan: Okay. So, that’s still a goal. That’s wonderful. We have to achieve our goals one little thing at a time. Let me tell you a little about myself. When I wanted to be a programmer, I was a kid as well. When I wanted to do programming, I just wanted to make games – video games that I could play. That’s what I wanted to do, but I never got to do it. I never got to actually realize that original dream because I discovered other things that I really wanted to do. So, it’s totally okay if you make a little goal and then later in life if you realize that maybe there’s something even better. You can change your goals and pursue that. It gives you direction. You know where you can go. You’re good at programming. You’re good at software and computers and technology and you’ll discover great things as you go. Companies and other people will value that. 

Arsalan: So, fast-forward. You were doing programming. You were learning iOS development, JavaScript, and Ruby on Rails. You’ve already done Lua. What happened after that? 

Timothy: I wanted to create a company for the apps so I could bring the profits to my mom and I could help her. 

Arsalan: Okay. So, you figured that now you know how to make apps. Maybe you could make them for other people who need these apps and they’ll pay you money and you can then help your mom. It’s great that you were thinking of bringing in money. That’s wonderful. So, you just decided to start a company. So, how did you start a company? Did you just register a website? You made a pretty good website. I went to your website. It looks very nice – BugZero.codes. So, you said “Now, I’m open for business” and anybody who wants to make an iOS app, they can ask you. Is that right? 

Timothy: Actually, it got renamed. It was originally just BugZero, but Mom decided to add ‘.codes’ to it because that was our URL. So, it became BugZero.codes.  

Arsalan: Okay. So, how did you find a customer? It’s hard for people. I can tell you from myself [my perspective] because I do consulting. So, how do I get someone to pay me? It’s hard because you have to find the right people and then you have to convince them that you are the right person. So, you were able to find somebody to pay you to do some work for them. Is that right? 

Timothy: No. 

Arsalan: Oh. You’re still working on that? 

Timothy: No. 

Arsalan: That’s what you want to do, right? You want to … so, if I wanted to hire somebody to do an app for me, an iOS, could I hire you? Are you available for that? 

Daniel: Actually – I’m Daniely, by the way… 

Arsalan: Hi. 

Daniel: BugZero is actually a non-profit. 

Arsalan: Okay. So, what does it do? What does BugZero do? 

Daniel:  We’re pretty much a platform and we want to spread around coding and teaching kids how to code. 

Arsalan: Ah. Okay. So, you’re not making apps for other people. What you’re doing is … you want to inspire other children to learn programming because programming is a good skill. It’s not necessarily to make money because children are not really working at jobs and making money. What we’re saying is that programming is a fundamental skill just like math. People do math and they can also do programming. It’s one other thing and it’s very useful. So, can you tell me why you think kids should learn programming? 

Eugene: We believe in teaching kids programming because coding is the future and everything around us has coding pretty much in it. We believe that every profession could use some form of coding or technology. If kids learn how to code and use technology, they’ll really influence and change jobs and maybe change the future. 

Arsalan: Okay, so programming is a very important skill and will give you the tools so that you can get jobs. That’s good. Also, programming has the other benefit that it expands your mind. It makes you smarter because it makes you think in different ways. Your brain has these neurons and it makes certain connections and you actually become smarter by learning a programming language.  

Arsalan: Yet, you also become smarter by learning anything new like a new language. If you wanted to learn French or Arabic or Chinese or any kind of a different language from your native language. You then build those connections in your brain and you become smarter. That’s just what it is. So, if you ask a kid who knows several languages, you will be able to exercise more of your brain. Similarly, if you know programming, that will make you smarter and will allow your brain to expand a little bit. So, I agree with that. I think this is pretty useful. 

Arsalan: Now, what happened after that? At some point in time, Timothy got you guys involved. Timothy, you got your brothers involved in this programming thing. How did that happen? 

Timothy: We first started to work together on apps. Eugene, here, is the quality assurance person. Daniel does the project management, and I’m the one who makes the apps. Eugene makes sure there are no errors or bugs in the apps and if there are, then I am responsible for fixing them. 

Arsalan: Okay, so you have divided the labor. You do the programming. Eugene does the QA or testing to make sure it works and Daniel is the one who manages the projects as the project manager to make sure that everything is done properly. Is that how you divide it? 

Timothy: Yes. 

Arsalan: Okay. So, why did they decide that they wanted to do those jobs and why did they not do programming? They’re not programming. They’re part of your software development enterprise. In software development, there’s not just programming. It’s not just coding. There are lots of different roles. There’s a role for somebody to make sure that what your building is going to be what the customer or the world needs. There’s somebody who is going to make sure that what is being built is proper. So, there’s a tester role and there’s a coding role. Many times, a programmer wears all these hats in small organizations and they do all of it. So, why did you decide to divide the work into these different hats where one person is doing one thing and the other person is doing the other thing. Why did you do that? 

Timothy: I knew that it’d be too much of a task for one person doing all the work like thinking up the project and making sure the project has no bugs. It’s all too much for one person. So, my brothers took some of the lead on projects with each brother being responsible for one aspect of one program. They are to think up the projects. I am to actually code the projects and Eugene’s last task is to make sure that they always work right. 

Arsalan: Okay. So, tell me a little about your company, BugZero. Is that a registered company? Did you register it as a company? 

Timothy: We’re still working on that. 

Arsalan: Okay. That’s totally fine. You can get an LLC, but obviously, you need a grownup to do that. I don’t know that as a child you could do it. A limited liability company is very easy to do. You just fill out a form and you’ll have a company if you really wanted to, but you don’t have to. You can just be yourself. You can be a proprietor as well – a sole proprietor and just have a website and that’s totally fine, too. It matters if you are going to collect money. If you’re doing projects to collect money and you’re doing projects for other people who are going to use it, then it’s a good idea to create a company. We can talk about that. If you want to know how to do that, I can talk to you about this. 

Arsalan: This has only been going on for about two years. In the meantime, you’ve learned all these different languages and then you and … all of the kids are in the process of publishing nine different books about programming. Is that right? 

Timothy: Yes. 

Arsalan: Nine different books. Okay, so that is incredible because writing a book is not a small feat. You need to have authority. You need to know what you are saying. You need to be able to say it. You need someone to publish it. So, there are lots of things involved. So, do you think that’s what you want to do? You just want to write a lot of books and that’s kind of your business model? When you sell the books, then you can bring in some revenue, like you said, to help your mom and so on and just make some money for the company. Is that kind of what you’re thinking? 

Timothy: No.  

Arsalan: Okay. So, tell me a little about these books. What is the first book that you decided to write? 

Timothy: A picture book about how everyone can code, including kids. 

Arsalan: Say that again. What’s the name of that book? 

Timothy: “Everyone Can Code, Including Kids” 

Arsalan: Ah, “Everyone Can Code, Including Kids.” That would be the picture book and how old would the kids be who should read this book? 

Timothy: Ages seven to 11. 

Arsalan: Ages seven to 11. Okay. It’s a picture book for kids ages seven to 11 and just letting people know that anybody can code. Why did you think about writing that book? 

Timothy: We wanted to show that everyone, no matter their ages, can code. 

Arsalan: Okay. So, tell me a little about this. What’s in that book? 

Timothy: It shows examples of JavaScript and different people coding … a police officer, a firefighter, a teacher, a chef … 

Arsalan: Okay. Did you do your own artwork or did you have someone else do it? 

Timothy: No. Someone else did it. 

Arsalan: So, did you hire someone to do the artwork or was it a friend? 

Timothy: It was the person who helped set up the Bug Zero page. 

Arsalan: Ah, okay. So, there is someone who designed the Bug Zero page, which is a website that you made using WordPress and that designer also helped with the artwork for your book. That’s wonderful. So, that’s a book that you’re still writing? Or, did you already write it? 

Timothy: We already wrote it. 

Arsalan: Okay. So, it’s already finished. It’s not published yet, though, is that right? 

Timothy: Oh, no. It is published. Wait, no it’s not. 

Arsalan: Oh, it’s not published yet. 

Timothy: No, not yet. 

Arsalan: So, if I wanted to buy that book, what do I have to do? 

Daniel: Excuse me. What did you say? 

Arsalan: If I wanted to get that book or anyone who is listening to this podcast right now, how would they get this book? Will they have to wait until you’re published? 

Eugene: Uh, yeah. …. 

Arsalan: Are you self-publishing it? Are you publishing it yourself or do you have a publisher? 

Eugene: We have a publisher. 

Arsalan: You have a publisher and it’s in the process of publishing. Okay, and my producer who did the pre-interview, she said that you have some kind of agreement in different countries. So, tell me where this would be published. Which countries? 

Eugene: Well, we want this book to be published in places like Haiti and … Well, first, we want it to be published here in America. Then, we want to spread it out to other places like Haiti, Ghana, and libraries in mostly third-world countries because we want to improve people’s lives there. 

Timothy: …and Liberia. 

Eugene: …and Liberia. Places like those. 

Arsalan: Okay, so, countries in Africa and certain other countries that are third-world countries where there’s a lot of poverty and people are struggling and you think that if the kids over there learn programming, then it would give them the tools to maybe get some jobs or make some money by making apps or websites for other people. I think that’s the social thing that you want to do. You want to help those people to have the means to support themselves. 

Daniel: Yep. 

Arsalan: And you also want to publish it in America. Well, that’s a big task and I wish you good luck. When it is published, you’ll have to come back on this show and tell us about it so that we can learn a little more about the book and our audience can, perhaps, go and pick up a copy. So, that’s wonderful. We’ll talk about this when you publish. 

Arsalan: So, then you decided to write other books. So, what was the second book? 

Daniel: So, the second book was my book and It’s called “Learn the Terms” and it’s a teen edition. It [helps] teenagers to learn the different terms in coding. So, when they begin coding, they aren’t saying things like “I don’t understand this. What is that? What does that mean?” They will already have a guide. 

Arsalan: Wow. I never would’ve thought about a book like that. I think that a book like that could be really useful, especially for people who may be feeling a little shy or maybe they don’t know and don’t want to ask a dumb question. 

Daniel: Right. 

Arsalan: So, you want to help those people and I think that adults could probably use that book too. So, that’s pretty useful because whoever is starting out, if they don’t have any background, how would they know? So, give some examples of the terms that you are explaining in that book. 

Daniel: We define what a bug is – a defect or a problem that stops the program from doing what it’s supposed to do. We define what functions are – like how your code uses functions and what they do. We also define scaffolding, like you said, which is like a skeleton or a preset to code something. It’s things like that and terminal and different things like that. 

Arsalan: Okay. So, you didn’t go to code school or any kind of code academy, did you? 

Daniel: I had a website resource list … 

Arsalan: Okay. How did you learn all these terms? Did Timothy tell you? 

Daniel: Yes. Some of them he told me. He has a coding mentor who comes to our house and they teach and work on coding. So, I’m there and I listen in to what they’re doing and I learn some of the things that they’re doing. 

Arsalan: Okay. So, let’s talk about this mentor. So, Timothy, you have a mentor that comes to your house every week, once a week? 

Timothy: Once on Saturdays. 

Arsalan: Once on Saturdays – and spends maybe one hour with you? 

Timothy: Yes. 

Arsalan: Okay. So, why did you want to have a mentor? 

Timothy: To help me improve my knowledge of coding. 

Arsalan: Okay and was it your idea or was it your mom’s idea? 

Timothy: It was my mom’s idea. 

Arsalan: So, your mom said: “You need someone to help you.” This is perfect because Mom had some background in programming, too, because she did computer science back in Nigeria. That was Nigeria, right? Did I get that right? 

Eugenia (Mom): Yes, you’ve got that right. 

Arsalan: Okay and you already did your computer science and math. So, you already know a little about programming and you were able to guide him. That’s perfect, but even if you didn’t, you know about having a mentor – this podcast is about mentorship, mainly. We need mentors. We need people to help. We can help each other, especially people who have been doing this for a while. We can make it easy for new people. So, that’s wonderful. You said that if he had a mentor, that would be good and he could ask questions. What does the mentor do? Do you have a curriculum that you follow or do you just ask any question? 

Eugenia: They meet on Saturdays and get to do fun projects. They do different exercises and he’s been able to get his brothers up to speed on the coding adventure. 

Arsalan: Okay and is there any particular programming language or a thing that they do like making websites or just whatever the kids want to do? 

Eugenia: Right now, BugZero.codes is bringing kids to tech. That’s what they say they are doing – bringing kids into technology. So, they work on the curriculum that they use for their workshop. They have a workshop once a month, where they teach kids how to code. So, the boys prepare for that and he kind of looks at what they are doing and [says] “Do we do this” or “I think we should go this way. What do you think we should do?” They get to talk about it. 

Arsalan: Okay. How did you find that mentor? That’s the hardest thing because if I wanted to find a mentor for my child, I think that I would have a very hard time. So, how did you find one? 

Eugenia: He actually taught Timothy in his technology school. Recently, a man named Mr. Roys reached out to Timothy, too, on LinkedIn. He wants to teach him AI. So, they actually started on that today – learning AI. 

Arsalan: Hmm. So, you have two mentors. 

Eugenia: Yes. 

Arsalan: Are you paying them or is that pro bono? 

Eugenia: One is pro bono and the other is a little tip. It’s nothing much. The whole idea is that they want to teach him. They want him to learn. They always say it is exciting, you know, to get him up to speed. They can’t believe that he is able to do the things that he does. 

Arsalan: [Laughter] Yes, I can’t believe it either. It’s quite incredible because most children – they want to do other things. They want to watch T.V. or maybe play with their toys, but your child wants to create things. You must be a very proud mother. 

Eugenia: Am I proud? No, but I am thankful. [Laughter]. He reads a lot of books. 

Arsalan: Okay. 

Eugenia: In a week, he could read as much as 20 books – in a week, I’m telling you – seven days. He sleeps with books under his pillow. He wakes up in the morning and the first thing he does is grab a book. 

Arsalan: Well that’s wonderful. What kind of books do you like to read, Timothy? 

Timothy: Mostly chapter books and sci-fi fiction. 

Arsalan: Okay. Not programming books. These are fun books. 

Timothy: We do have programming books, but I’ve already read them all. 

Eugene: He’s read them all. 

Arsalan: [Laughing]. You’ve read all the programming books. 

Timothy: Yes. 

Eugenia: …he’s read them all. 

Arsalan: Okay and what do you do? Do you just read them like a novel like you’re turning pages and reading code? Or do you say “Let me type it in and see if it works,” but that takes a long time. What do you do? 

Timothy: So, usually, I just do the pages – flip the pages and look at examples. Then, they often have results. I looked up what the code results in. 

Arsalan: Well, I think that you are a very special child and we need to explore a little more about all of the wonderful things that you know and are doing. We need to learn a little more about BugZero.codes, your projects, your website, what’s going on there, and your mentorship. This episode has been wonderful. It’s late where you are and where I am and I know that you have school tomorrow. So, I don’t want to keep you today for very long. Would you like to come back and talk a little more about all of the things that you guys are doing? 

Timothy: Yes. 

Arsalan: Okay. We would love to have you and thank you, Mom, for letting us talk to your kids. To your mom, I just want to ask if she has any messages for parents who have children and who would like their kids to maybe learn a little bit of programming or at least try a dabble in it. Is there any advice that you could give them? 

Eugenia: Every kid can code if we give them the chance. Sometimes we just don’t believe that they can do it. I didn’t believe that Timothy could do it. I didn’t even believe that his brothers could coincide, but they are. They are doing it. If we would just give them a chance, I think they would code. 

Arsalan: Wow. I think that’s a good message.  

Eugenia: Everyone, not anybody. It’s collectively everyone can code, including kids. 

Arsalan: Including kids – and adults, if they wanted to. 

Eugenia: Yes, if they want to. The whole idea … we need to take this fear that is attached to coding and programming … people don’t even wait until they get into it before they say “No, I can’t do this” or “No, I know my child can’t do this.” Some people think that the kids who do it are special. No. That’s why they are taking their messages to schools, libraries, and the community – to say that everyone can code. Every child can. 

Arsalan: That’s wonderful. You’re taking your message and basically talking to as many kids as possible and going to libraries. He’s getting ready for his first speaking engagement, is that right? 

Eugenia: Oh, no. He’s already done several in the last year. This year is just beginning. So, we’re going to be signing up some. 

Arsalan: Wow. What kind of speaking engagements has he done so far? 

Eugenia: He’s gone to different schools within the community. He’s gone to coding clubs within the community and he’s gone the libraries in the community. 

Arsalan: Okay. 

Eugenia: And, he’s gone to Meetup events to talk to adults and how they can increase the tech community because we need more people in technology. We need to bring more people on board. 

Arsalan: Yeah, absolutely. 

Eugenia: Every profession is waiting for the tech community. So, we need to grow the tech community. So, he reaches out to them, too, to tell them that you can get somebody on board. You can mentor somebody. You can pull somebody. You can encourage somebody. You can inspire curiosity in other people. Let’s not just keep our knowledge and our skills to ourselves. We need to pass it on. Pass it on the next person. Pass it on to your child. Pass it on to your neighbor. Pass it on to a friend’s friend. If only we could just make a little time. 

Arsalan: That’s a wonderful message. Yeah, let’s not hoard our knowledge. Let’s spread it, especially when it comes to something that is so exciting and amazing that even children are excited. Children are able to do amazing things with it. They feel accomplished. They feel great and they become smarter. Then, when they grow up, this is a good career for them, if they wanted to. You don’t have to become a professional software developer, but you could. That’s wonderful. 

Eugenia: Yeah. I was actually surprised. I was at a speaking engagement that he went for. There were about 300 developers and when he asked the question “Is there anyone here who is teaching a kid how to code,” there were none. I said “Whoa, really? None.” … Then, he came up with the acronym Mr. Ted – Mentor A Kid. So, replicate your problem-solving skill. T – Teach a kid how to code. E – Encourage a kid. D – Do it with all of your heart. If we do that, we will grow the tech community. 

Arsalan: Yeah, I think that’s a wonderful message. So, Timothy, is there anything else that you would like to say before we say goodnight for now? 

Timothy: No. Not necessarily. 

Arsalan: Okay. Your mom said it for both of you. You are very articulate. I am very glad to have finally met you guys and I think we would love to have you back. We’d love to learn a little more about all of your kids and all the things that you like to do. Let’s hope that we can keep this conversation going and let’s hope that anybody who is listening to this right now is encouraged and they get excited and maybe they follow in your footsteps. Then, maybe they can pick up one of your books to get that inspiration. When you publish it, you’ll have to come back so we can share it with the world. 

Eugene: Absolutely. 

Arsalan: Alright, kids. Everybody, I’m saying goodbye for right now, but we’ll see you later. Bye. 

Important Links

  • Tech Talent South 
  • Bug Zero Codes 

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Episode 71 – Ross The Music Teacher Is Now A Coder?

February 19, 2019 By arsalan Leave a Comment

Ross the Music Guy
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Sometimes the moments in life catch us up when we least expect it. Life gets busy. One moment, we think we have the everything figured out. We make plans for our future only to later see those plans take a fresh path and a new life of their own. Like a wave, those paths in life ebb, flow, tumble, and roll … but sometimes they blossom and grow in unexpected ways that we never would have expected. That’s what happened with our next guest, Ross Trottier.  

Ross, AKA, Ross the Music Teacher, began his career certain that he wanted to play classical guitar. So, he went to college, but something soon changed. He then dropped out of college and started his own business teaching music and guitar lessons, but Ross didn’t stop there. He also wrote a book on music theory, which went on to nab some sweet sales on Amazon, and then Ross grew his business further by launching his own YouTube channel and Patreon site to reach even more music students. There was only one, little problem. Some of the students struggled learning the concepts of music theory. What could Ross do to enhance his students learning experience and make the outcome more enjoyable and successful for them? If you said, coding, you’re absolutely right!

Ross decided to try a creative, new way to help his students learn the fundamentals and he wanted to do it in the virtual world. His idea would allow his students a fun, new way to learn music theory concepts on the go. That’s right, music man Ross decided to create a mobile music app, but to do that, he first needed to learn how to code. Listen in to episode 71 and hear Ross’ tale … from music to coding and back again.
 

Be sure to say hello to Ross on YouTube! 

Ross’ Bio:

Ross Trottier attended CU Boulder as a Classical Guitar Performance Major under the virtuoso Jonathan Leathewood, where he received the highest marks for theoretical studies. He currently resides in Colorado Springs, where he teaches and performs full time.  Additionally, when he isn’t teaching and working with his music students, Ross is coding a game-based music theory app to better engage his students and boost their overall learning experience in a fun, creative way.  

Episode Highlights and Show Notes:

Arsalan: Hi, Everyone, and welcome to another episode of Mentoring Developers. Today, my guest is Ross Trottier. Ross is a college dropout, but then, he turned around and became a [music] teacher and wrote a book that’s become a bestseller on Amazon. Ross, how are you? 

Ross: How are you doing? Thanks for having me. 

Arsalan: I’m so glad that I could have you on the show. I’ve been following you on YouTube and I want everybody to know your story. It’s fascinating. So, tell us a little about what happened in college and then what happened after that. 

Ross: So, in college, I was going to school for classical guitar performance. There were a number of things that I was unhappy with concerning the institution and [it was] not what I considered to be the best career path … monetarily speaking. At the end of the day, I didn’t want to become a professor at a school that I wouldn’t be happy at. So, I took my music credits and dropped out and then spent the next few years working at jobs, practicing my music, and continuing my studies with a couple of the teachers that I had back at the college.  

Ross: My time took me out to Oregon where I played cello on the sidewalk and I worked at Intel as a procurement agent. I then returned to the East coast, where my folks live, for a few months. Then, I went ‘full circle’ and ended up back in Colorado where I had started. What I wanted to do was teach guitar. So, I was driving from one house to the next teaching people and living out of my car and sometimes on my friend’s living room floor.  

Ross: One day my car broke down and I had to turn it into a semi-permanent dwelling. I took whatever money that I had left and rented an office. In Colorado, it is very cold at night. So, I spent lots of time in that office and I decided to use that time to make music websites, which started me on the path that I’m on right now — learning to code apps that systematically teach you music in an arcade game format. 

Arsalan: Fascinating story. So, you had a situation where you were going to college and, obviously, when you started you wanted to finish, right?  

Ross: Yes. 

Arsalan: At some point, you realized that it wasn’t worth it because you realized that you were going to spend all this time and money getting all these credits only to get a job to do for you what you wanted it to do. So, when you’re starting out as a freshman and going through the classes and learning, what changed? I’m assuming that your perception of college changed along the way? 

Ross: It started out as [a feeling]. A lot of it seemed practical at first: writing papers and trying to figure out what you wanted to do. I didn’t start out as a music major. I went through a few majors and did a lot of science credits on the side. I did a lot of math as well. Eventually, I landed on music because I fell in love with the classical guitar, which is a bad reason to choose a major and probably why I dropped out. 

Ross: Over time, as I saw how the classical music world worked and how people interacted with each other, it gave me a sour taste. I didn’t like it and I’m not really a big fan of going out to concerts and things. I realized that I really didn’t want to play concerts. I was just in love with being in the practice room, which is something that I do every day religiously.  

Ross: I was also looking at all of these music majors and counting all the possible jobs out there for them and the math didn’t add up to me. It also seemed to me that all of these professors were more or less kind of operating a bit of a pyramid scheme, where they promise everyone that they’re going to become professors, but there are 30 students to a professor. 

Arsalan: Right. So, that’d never work. 

Ross: So, it just seemed … yeah, the idea in classical music is that you go until you get your doctorate and then you try to become a professor or you play concerts every night of your life. Neither of those choices appealed to me.  

Arsalan: Okay, so you thought that you were going to get what you needed out of this degree. “I’m here. Let me take all of the classes that I’m interested in. Then, when I’m done, I’ll figure it out.” 

Ross: Yeah, and there were a couple of other things that happened that pushed me down that path. I ended up with a bit of tendonitis in my hand because I worked as a grocery stocker while practicing a lot at the same time. So, I overused my hand because I was typing quite a bit. That added more pressure and stress to move out and find my way around. 

Ross: When I left, I was completely clueless for a number of years. I worked at Whole Foods for a little bit and at random teaching jobs — freelance, or down at the music studio at the corner.  

Arsalan: Yeah, we’ve all been there. We’ve all had periods when we don’t know what we’re doing. For some people, it happens when they’re younger and in their teens or early twenties, they don’t know what to do. For some people like me, it happens later in life. 

Arsalan: When I was a kid, I was so focused. All I wanted to do was to become a programmer. That’s all I wanted and all I ever did and nothing else really mattered that much. I was sure about what I was going to do. Yet, after I had done that and had gotten my degrees and worked for a little bit, then I was in a difficult place because I contemplated whether this was all that I really wanted to do. Or, whether there was more to life than this. So, we all go through this. You were in a phase where you were trying to figure yourself out and you didn’t have a plan.  

Arsalan: So, the lesson to be learned here is that even if you don’t have a plan, maybe life has a plan for you. You were trying to figure things out and you knew one thing that you were good at and you persisted at it. Those are the two qualities that I think all of us can learn from. If anyone is listening to this podcast right now and thinking “I am really good at this one thing, but I’m not really good at anything else,” then you should double-down on what you’re really good at. Make sure that you’re better at it than most people around you.  If you become an expert, a lot of things will fall into place.  

Ross: Totally, and it’s something that you kind of treat as a savings account. It’s a long game and when I was kicking it around, I probably wasn’t ready to do all the things that I’m doing now. I wasn’t ready to write a music theory book. I wasn’t ready to do that until after a lot of cello improvisation on the sidewalk for change in Portland, Oregon for about three or four months. I did it for a number of hours a day. I wasn’t ready to do what I was supposed to do. I was just practicing, which is the thing that I’ve been obsessed with for many years. 

Arsalan: Right. Practicing in music. I know, and you know now, that I’ve been trying to learn to play the guitar for a couple of years. I dabbled for a few years before that. I know how hard the struggle is to find the time and the will to practice, but practice equally applies to programming as, Ross, you would’ve noticed when you started out. I was listening to somebody and they said that in order for you to learn something new, you need to master it so that it becomes automatic.  

Arsalan: So, you should be able to break it down into small enough size chunks that you can do three sessions of 45 minutes each to master it. If it’s not possible for you to master that skill or that thing that you want to learn within three sessions of 45 minutes, then you have picked a chunk that is too big for you. Break it down until you find that and then you can become a master and just do it without thinking. I see a lot of guitar players and other musicians who play somewhat complicated music and they’re talking and doing other things and it’s just happening. It seems impossible for somebody like me, but for them, it’s normal. 

Ross: Totally. 

Arsalan: Programming works just like this. There are a few things like practice runs that we do called katas. We do these simple things repeatedly again and again so that they become mindless. Instead of looking at it as “these are the ten lines of code that I have to do to achieve something,” That thing turns into a single blurb. Now you’re like “That’s one thing.” 

Ross: Totally. 

Arsalan: So, that becomes one thing just like when you’re in music and, correct me if I’m wrong here, instead of thinking that you have to play these seven notes and this scale, you just play that scale. It becomes one thing for you. 

Ross: You’re 100% correct. I have a lot of students who … one of the most common questions and I think one of the most frustrating questions for me that I get from students is “Should I learn music theory?” My answer to it is exactly the answer that you just gave. At a certain point when you are able to look at a group of notes and know what chord it is, you’re now speaking the language and things start to flow much easier … but, if you know that you’re dealing with an E flat major and you know the key signature and you know you’re an A flat … there are just a lot of things that need to be very quick. 

Ross: I also designed some strategies that deal with repetition, measuring that repetition, and spreading it out over months. In music, I would take the idea that you put and go even further. In terms of breaking things down for music, I actually have people break down to 1-measure and half-measure segments that they write down in a grid and then they do that twenty-five times a day for the next three months as a part of their warm-up so that they don’t have to get the half-measure of the piece that is preventing them from learning how to play. So, setting things up in a systematic way … that’s a thing that I’m fairly obsessed with.  

Arsalan: Yeah, I think that’s exactly right. You need to practice and you need to become a master. Part of the problem that we have in our industry, if you want to become a software developer, is that most companies and developers and etc. don’t really care about mastering. We’re not looking to become really good at something. We just want to get by. “Can you get this thing out for me? Can you make it look like it at least works? Then, we’ll move on and hopefully, nobody will ever use it or, if they do use it, we’ll fix it if we see a problem.” That happens a lot and I think there is a place for that. I’m not saying that it should never happen, but sometimes I’ve seen it happen in mission-critical applications or regulatory –financial –this or that applications where numbers matter and mistakes are not a good idea. 

Ross: Totally. 

Arsalan: If you learn the art and the discipline, because art comes with some kind of discipline, then you will know when you see something going out of bounds. As a musician, you can hear it. “This note sounds wrong.” It’s similar to programming. In many programming environments, we call them code smells. You’re like “This smells bad,” but I think we overuse that term a lot. So, I don’t like to use the term code smell. The basic idea is that something is out of place – not right. You’d be able to do that with practice. So, that’s something that’s common in any skill. For me, because I do a little bit of music and a lot of programming, I think I’m beginning to see that and it’s fascinating. 

Arsalan: Alright. My hard drive is making a lot of sounds right now. I think it’s going crazy. 

Ross: It’s all good. I get it. 

Arsalan: [Laughing] Yeah, I’m not cutting this stuff out. What I’m saying is that this stuff happens to me because now I have this very nice microphone that is very sensitive and … 

Ross: Yeah. [Laughing] 

Arsalan: I have this external hard drive that I don’t need, really, but it keeps my big projects. 

Ross: I’m totally familiar with the problem that you’re spelling out. 

Arsalan: … and it’s just loud right now. I can hear it. 

Ross: Yep. 

Arsalan: So, what I need to do is eject and that’s something that I haven’t done in the past … was to eject and my computer goes completely mad at me. It’s like “How dare you unplug something.” I didn’t eject it yet. So, hopefully, I did that and then I can unplug it while we’re live … as long as I don’t do the wrong one. I’m just going to turn the power off. Okay, hopefully, that makes it better. Alright, everyone, this is something that happens when you’re dealing with audio. 

Ross: [Laughing] 

Arsalan: So, I’m trying my best to give people good audio. It doesn’t always work. In the past, I’ve spent hours and hours working on editing and trying to take all the noise out and the spaces and awkward silences, but then I end up spending 20 hours in a day on it. 

Ross: Is that right? Yeah, there’s only so many hours in the day. I’m very familiar with it. 

Arsalan: [Laughing] So, then what happened? What’s fascinating for me is that your story is fantastic. So far, you’re starting out. You want to be somebody but you don’t know what you’re doing. You’re going through some medical issues as well and you do a little bit of this and a little bit of that. Then, you didn’t have a place to live. That’s got to be stressful. Then, you decide to start a blog or make a website. At some point later, I suppose you started making videos. 

Ross: Yeah, I started doing that right about the same time that I started making the site. I was just kind of shooting in the dark. I didn’t really have too much of a purpose with it yet. At a certain point, I decided to write Music Theory in One Lesson, which is my music theory book. Actually, now that I’ve been looking through API documents, I find it interesting that the Music Theory in One Lesson feels like an API document to me. It doesn’t show you art. It shows you the functionality. That’s something that I realized about 45 minutes ago. 

Ross: So, I decided to write this book because as a teacher, I was getting frustrated with students not being interested in learning music theory, or if they were, I gave them a lecture that I had canned. They didn’t have anything real to look at and it was a lot to take in – in one session. You can’t learn all of it in one session. So, I decided to write a book.  

Ross: Then, someone told me that I could publish the book myself. So, I checked Amazon to find a book on that. … a book on self-publishing. I read the book, wrote [my] book, followed the steps, put it out, and people seemed to like it. It almost took off by itself, although, I did do a little bit of Facebook stuff for it. That was pretty cool for a little while. Then, I realized that this was a book and people were doing videos. So, I decided to do a video for it. 

Ross: I did an animated version of the book that is [now] free on YouTube. It wasn’t always free. I used to charge $100 for it and I did a whole sales funnel for it. Then, I realize that you just end up breaking even with that anyway. So, I put it on YouTube.  

Arsalan: I think that was a very smart move. That thing that you did … by making this free, that’s why you’re on this podcast because that’s the very first video that I watched of you. Had you not done that, I never would have known about you. 

Ross: It was one of the best decisions ever. It was fun learning how to make a website into the sales funnel, but at the end of the day, this is information that I’ve put together and I’ve decided to put it out for free. I’ll put a little advertisement for the book in there and that way it’s worth everybody’s while. At this point, I’ve received over a million views on it. I’ve got people from all over the world sending me emails about it. It’s one of the coolest things. 

Arsalan: Yes, it is. So, what I’ve learned from that and what I really appreciate is … I’ve watched a lot of videos that explain music theory because I have no background in it. To be honest, I have no business thinking that I could be a guitarist or learning how to play. If you’re cynical, you might say “what business do you have?” I don’t know anybody who has done anything musical ever – nobody in my friends or family [circles]. I have no business. Somebody like you or somebody in the audience might be thinking that they have no business being a programmer and thinking “I don’t know anything about technology. How can I be a programmer?” 

Arsalan: This is how I felt about music. I felt very vulnerable. I didn’t know anything. People kept giving me these little bits of information that I couldn’t understand. It seemed too hard. Obviously, they all want to make money because they’re all trying to sell something. If I don’t know that I’m any good at it, then how would I know whether I should buy a book? So, I’m just testing the waters.  

Arsalan: So, I came across your video. It came across as clear. What you did brilliantly, though, was that you made the tempo very slow. By tempo, I mean that you spoke slowly. Then, there was a delay and I could see the notes. You animated it, as you said. So, I could see things moving and transforming. So, I thought “Oh, okay. This makes sense.” And, you kept saying that it was easy. You kept saying that music theory was easy. It’s not hard. So, I started to believe that maybe I could do it too. 

Arsalan: Something similar to this happens in programming. A lot of us like to say that programming is hard. I know some people who have degrees. I have degrees in computer science. Yet, I know people who have good careers and resent the people who don’t have that background, but came in and became their equal suddenly because “What business do they have? They haven’t spent six years in college doing this.”  

Ross: Right. 

Arsalan: Growing up, our professors used to make fun of these people who just picked up HTML. The derogatory term that people used to throw around is script kitties. That’s what they used to call these people. They were not considered real programmers. Real programmers do this … That’s how it worked. 

Ross: Totally. That exists in the music world completely. A hundred percent guaranteed that a classically trained music professor is going to scoff at anybody who doesn’t know their style. I am completely guilty of this too. 

Arsalan: Yeah. We all fall into this trap. It’s hard not to do this. Imagine, Ross, that you’ve spent who knows how many thousands of hours of practice. If I came along and started a YouTube channel teaching music and I got the same number of viewers as you do, I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if you were a little bit miffed at that. 

Ross: I think I’m good about that. One thing that I try to when I’m approaching anything is … jealousy is really easily replaced with gratitude. YouTube didn’t exist a number of years ago. Having an ‘x’ number of thousands of people following me is great. There are actually a lot of people out there who I would consider to be undertrained for their YouTube following. I’ll give you a good example. This guy actually makes good YouTube videos, so I’m not talking smack. His name is Party Marty and he teaches strumming lessons. That’s what he does and people watch his videos. So why not? You’ve got to let people like what they like. 

Ross: There’s a lot of classical music out there that’s awful because musicians aren’t allowing people to like what they like. So, these classical musicians will gauge the viability of the music and how fast the scale runs are and how technical it is and a flat two or, God forbid there’s atonal music, which is difficult and they just sat down some random noise. You can’t get people to listen to it if they don’t know what it is. So, there’s a lot of that in the music world. Yet, at the end of the day, we’re just really lucky to be able to be in front of 500 people. It used to take a whole arena to do that. 

Arsalan: Yeah. Gratitude is a good way of approaching life in general. So, we need to be thankful for what we have and that’s a very positive emotion. I’m very competitive and I’ll admit that. There’s nothing wrong with being competitive. Yet, at the same time, I think that you have to compete with yourself, but at the end of the day you sit back and appreciate what you have. That’s just a better way of being. Okay, so let’s get back to your story. 

Arsalan: You started the YouTube channel. Then you wrote the book. Now, you’re still making a living because I’m assuming that YouTube still Gives you some income through ads? 

Ross: Yes, and I have plenty of students. 

Arsalan: Okay. So, you’ve got students and are they in person or online students? 

Ross: They are a mix of both. 

Arsalan: Okay. So, you have a few streams of income coming in. Things are looking alright, but obviously, you want to grow. You want to do something else. Then, something happened and you started programming. What happened there? 

Ross: So, that’s something [that happened] fairly recently and there are a few things that happened along the way there. One was the realization of what I’m good at and what I’m interested in and what I should be pursuing. My brain probably should have been introduced to this a while ago.  

Ross: It just so happens that I’m a musician but I’m a very system-oriented person. I realized that I can make money online doing websites and stuff. I built a website for an army surplus company that I did business with and am now a partial owner of. I still maintain the website and run it. So just being inside the world of technology and learning how to do marketing and promotions and things have put me into a daily routine where I am always looking for opportunities. 

Ross: Something that I’ve always struggled with over the last 3 years has been having the ability to systematize learning new things and the music, or being able to systematize my daily routine to be able to keep track of things. I’ve tried so many apps. It’s obscene — the number of apps that I’ve tried for learning music notes and doing all this other stuff.  What I’ve realized is that it’s a lot of software developers that play music who have developed these things. I highly doubt that any truly trained musicians are doing that. I found a lot of ‘halfway there’ apps or a lot of apps that are so good and so polished that you’ve got to connect your guitar into the thing. It doesn’t seem effective because you’ve already got your guitar in the practice room. What you need is an app that helps you practice while you’re away. So, I’ve noticed all of these things. I’ve noticed that there’s an opportunity there. 

Ross: I made a half-witted attempt to do it on my old website. I’m actually just finishing up with revamping that website and getting it set back up from the garbage that I came up with 2 years ago where I had systematized a few games that taught you how to do this. I was really just kind of doing this GitHub style where I was downloading peoples code and filling in my assets before uploading it again. it turned out crappy. 

Ross: So, I had a recent visit with a friend from out of town who develops VR. He’s got a really cool VR app … where you ride around on this train and stuff. He showed it to me and I just thought it was really cool. He then encouraged me to pick it up and try it out. So, I took a C# class on YouTube. It was like five hours long. I thought “Oh. This makes sense. Let’s do another one.” So, I’m probably about 150 hours of classes in. I’m just finishing up my first game app that mixes learning notes and tank warfare. 

Arsalan: Wow. That is quite incredible. The first thing that I am impressed with, and a little concerned about, is 150 hours of C#. [Laughs]. That can mess you up. 

Ross: Well, it’s a C#/Unity course. 

Arsalan: Okay. 

Ross: So, probably half of it is just in the Unity engine and the other half is scripting. I’ve definitely done classes where I thought that my eyeballs were going to fall out. 

Arsalan: That is some dedication. I’m impressed because I couldn’t sit through two hours of C# classes and I have been doing C# for many years. It’s hard to sit through programming. I mean, it’s hard to sit through any class, especially if you’re not doing it. 

Ross: I can’t sit through a music class anymore. 

Arsalan: Okay. [Laughs]. Yeah, because, you now kind of already … 

Ross: Yeah, you already know it.  

Arsalan: Yeah, you already know it. So, that’s interesting. Now, I’m going to ask you the obvious question. It may not be obvious to you, but to a lot of our listeners, they may be thinking C#? who does C#? It’s 2019 now. We do Ruby. We do python. Who’s doing C# and why? Why would someone who doesn’t work for a big corporation pick up C#, a Microsoft language? 

Ross: First, I’m kind of banking on being good at Unity. So, that’s the scripting language that gets put into there. I’ve considered getting into Python, but one of the differences between my path and that of many aspiring developers is if Google offered me a job, I would not take it. If anybody offered me a job, I would not take it. I don’t want a job.  

Ross: What I’m doing is creating things. If C# is what I need to learn to create this thing, then that is what I’ll do. That’s just how I am. I am eternally running away from being employed by anybody. I just want to make my own money. I want to do it in a way that I can approach it and, if I need to freelance with Unity, then I can do that. If I know how to script in Unity, then that’s a freelance job that I can post. 

Arsalan: That’s interesting because I have personally been interested in entrepreneurship and I’ve been doing consulting for a while and I’ve also worked as an employee. So, I understand that and I encourage people to think about self-employment, freelancing, or starting your own company and making products for yourselves or for others. That’s a very legitimate career path for a lot of people. It’s not for everybody, but it is for a lot of people who may be in a place where there aren’t a lot of good jobs, or maybe they feel like they have the ability to take a bit of risk. Then, they should do that. There is a risk, but there’s also a rewarding side of it and there’s no cap on income potential. I understand all that. 

Arsalan: So, you want to have a skill … that you can use to not only build your own product but then you can [also] sell that skill to somebody else. As you improve, you can charge more for that skill. It goes up. It goes higher from there. 

Ross: Bingo. 

Arsalan: Or, you could offer complete products to someone. You could say … I could hire you, for instance, to give me a couple of your hours and help me with a problem. Or, I could say “Could you build this complete thing for me?” Or, you could do it yourself. The good thing about it is the more you do it, the better you get. 

Arsalan: We spoke earlier about how discrete steps turn into this one little blob and so, you’re thinking in big-picture terms. You’re thinking in boxes, not in pieces of code anymore. The more you do it, the more things become automatic. So, that’s all wonderful. 

Ross: Yeah. 

Arsalan: I was playing the devil’s advocate when I asked you about C#. C# is a wonderful tool. 

Ross: Oh, that’s okay. 

Arsalan: I’m doing it for the benefit of the people. 

Ross: The funny thing is I don’t know which languages are better than others. 

Arsalan: [Laughing]. C# is one of the best languages for newcomers to learn … 

Ross: Cool. 

Arsalan: … and let me just say why I think that because it’s a little controversial – what I just said. Most young developers don’t learn C# because they are told that they should stay away from anything Microsoft. I think that it’s fair to stay away from anything that’s Microsoft, but C# is more than just Microsoft. The best reason to learn C# is not so that you can get a corporate job. It’s because it’s easy to learn and it’s a very straight forward language that makes sense. You don’t have to know some very intricate internal workings and some new paradigm to learn C#. It’s object-oriented and I think that it’s more natural. 

Arsalan: Secondly, the free tools that you can use to build .NET apps, whether you’re making a web app, a native app, or Unity or something, or Xamarin with mobile apps – anything that you’re doing with C# — you can use Visual Studio or Visual Studio Code.  

Arsalan: You can use different tools that will make it easier for you to not only write the code, but it’ll also suggest what you could type or what’s possible. That’s something that you can’t take for granted because Visual Studio does it the best. Yet, it also gives you incredible and amazing debugging tools that you can use to set a breakpoint and do a whole bunch of stuff when you start working with the Cloud. I’ve done a lot of salesforce development recently, and you don’t get that. You don’t get a lot of these features if you are not running with those toolchains. 

Arsalan: If you’re running in Ruby or Python … let’s say, if you have that kind of app, you have to have different kinds of debugging tricks up your sleeve. You can still set breakpoints and you can still inspect them, but you have to … it’s not easy for beginners. Let’s just say that, but it’s easy. I just wanted to say it so that if somebody is out there listening right now who doesn’t know which language to use, C# is a good start. At least start there, spend six months learning the basics of programming. Then, go somewhere else. 

Ross: Totally. 

Arsalan: Alright. So, you did that. What you’re going to end up doing is building this app using a game engine because Unity is really meant to make games. So, a lot of things that serve game mechanics or that come – I’m assuming that they come built-in, right? 

Ross: Yes. 

Arsalan: So, it’s sort of something like maybe you could start with a template that gives you something. Okay, so let me ask you this. You’re not making what I would consider a traditional game. You’re not making a platform or a 3D shooter … you’re making … describe to me what you’re trying to do. 

Ross: So, it’s a mix between note flashcards and tank warfare. It’s actually done and I have a copy of it on my computer … at least the first version, it seeks to tie together how quickly you recognize a note and as you recognize notes, you shoot these tanks that are coming along the staff. There are different power-ups and things like that. 

Arsalan: So … 

Ross: Arcade style. 

Arsalan: Is it targeted at a specific instrument?  

Ross: No. 

Arsalan: So, you listen to it and say this is a note? 

Ross: No. It trains the clefs. 

Arsalan: Ah. 

Ross: It has three modes: treble, alto, and bass clefs. So … whichever clef you need to learn. Typically, the tanks will show up where a note is and they’re coming along it and you have to shoot them in time. So, it just helps people to learn the note names in every clef, which is one of those things that you were talking about earlier. You need it to become a glob.  

Ross: So, many people sit down to start their guitar lessons and they are so discouraged because they have to slowly figure out what the note name is of each note that they’re reading on the staff. When that becomes fast, things become easier.  

Ross: This is a game where you can play it out your pocket if you’re on the subway, a bus, or on a plane. You’re not in the practice room. This is something that you can do while you’re away from the practice room and then when you return to the practice room, you’re magically better at something and that’s going to make your time easier. 

Arsalan: Okay. So, how long has it taken you from the moment you’ve opened your development environment to finishing version one or version 0.9 or whatever it is right now? 

Ross: So, I built no templates or anything. The only that I have right now are the Sprite assets, the P&G tank files because I am not a visual artist. Yet, all in all, it took me about four days. 

Arsalan: Wait. Four days to build a whole app in a language that you never knew before? 

Ross: Right around there. 

Arsalan: You’ve done a little bit of programming, but you haven’t done any object-oriented programming before. 

Ross: Before I attempted it, I went through four or five ‘follow along’ projects for Unity and C#. So, I kind of had an idea of how to go about it already. It wasn’t like a totally “Oh, I’ve never done it” and jumped in. I’ve pretty much never done it, but I’ve followed along, you know, an ‘x’ number of hours of tutorials. 

Arsalan: Interesting. 

Ross: … and just kind of applied the concepts that I’d learned through those.  

Arsalan: Wow. So, obviously, you’re doing this mainly to make some money. Right? 

Ross: Yeah. I want to be able to fund my education in coding. I don’t want to do this and not make any money. One of my great dreams in life is to be the student who gets forever paid. So, the way that I’m doing this … this is going to be a free app, but if you watch one of the ads all the way through before you begin playing, you get a shield power-up right at the beginning. So, that’s kind of the idea behind how I’m going to monetize this. 

Arsalan: That’s smart. So, did you figure out how much money you could make through these ads? Okay, so do you have any revenue goals? Let’s start from there. 

Ross: “I’m not sure” is my game. So, as I said, rugged. 

Arsalan: It’s fine. Big buttons. I can click it. 

Ross: [music playing] … and then there’s your ad that pops up. 

Arsalan: So, the ads are served by Unity? That’s interesting. 

Ross: Yes, they have it completely, natively in there. It’s like a plug-in that you start with. Now, the artist really … here’s the bass clef. As you can see, the tanks are coming across the top there. 

Arsalan: That’s nice. That’s pretty good. 

Ross: … and then … 

Arsalan: It’s pretty good. It looks good. They’re going and so you can fire from … oh, so these are the note names? I can’t really read what’s … 

Ross: Yeah. The buttons down there have the note names and as you hit the note name, it fires a laser along that trajectory that’s tied to the note name. 

Arsalan: Okay. So, are there different levels or is there just one level? 

Ross: The waves get a bit more difficult. So, as tanks start to spawn, there are different variables that hold their spawn time and their speed. There are also different kinds of tanks that will come out. So, there’s one that stops and shoots and moves and there’s one that explodes and turns into more tanks and then there are barrels that you can shoot that make different explosions. 

Arsalan: Wow. Well, I am really impressed because you definitely gave it a lot of thought and then you upped the difficulty level. You don’t need to be perfect. My recommendation is to let people finish the game. 

Ross: Totally. 

Arsalan: Some people make their games so hard and then never let somebody finish their game and you never give them the satisfaction of conquering something. So, that’s good. I think this is great. So, it took you four days to make and yet, … you paid somebody to make the artwork? Or is it just free creative commons? 

Ross: It’s just a creative common zip file of little tanks and army men. 

Arsalan: Okay. Well, that’s great. So, you got that and you had to set it up. I’m assuming there’s some kind of user interface where you can draw things or say that this is your scene. 

Ross: Yes. 

Arsalan: So, walk us through the process. Say, I want to build a game like this. What are the, say, five things I’d have to do? So, we know we’re going to get the assets and we’re going to create a scene where we’re going to place these things. So, then what? Do we have to say “Define an action on a Sprite or something?” How does it work? 

Ross: Well, so, this is how it worked for me. This is run one for me. Disclaimer to everybody: I am not giving this as advice. 

Arsalan: Of course. 

Ross: The first thing that I wanted to do was to make sure that A, I knew the one thing that I wanted to do well. I didn’t want this to be a huge project where there were like a thousand things to do. I wanted to say “What do I want people to get out of this?” Without that, I didn’t feel like I had anywhere to start. 

Ross: So, I thought “Okay, well, I want people to learn the notes of the staff. How am I going to do that?” Well, I looked at some other arcade games and just said “Okay, this looks like the one that I learned how to make in Unity that had a shooter where they came across and jumped over things.”  

Ross: So, I was like “Okay, I kind of have an idea on how that works.” I sat down and all that I wanted to do first was put the staff down on the thing and get a tank to move across it. I created the tank and did a very simple script that moved it at a certain speed. Then, I had to figure out how to get it to explode. Well, I needed to shoot something at it. I created a laser and set them both up and they clashed when I started the program. Then I needed to learn how to get the lasers to spawn and the tanks as well. So, I made an array of locations on the screen on either side that was lined up.  

Ross: Then, I learned how to set up a random spawn system for the tanks and then I made a bunch of buttons along the bottom that was tied to a fire method inside of a very simple laser script that I had. I got that to work and next I needed a points system. So, I just kind of wrote down the next things that this thing needed and figured it out. I know it’s probably a pretty rookie way to go about it, but I wasn’t sure how the process was going to work. 

Ross: As I went along, I thought of a few solutions to some problems that I hadn’t seen in classes like getting the tanks to stop between random points by using a random variable where you have to compare where the random variable is when they spawn compared to their position on the page. I just worked through one problem at a time.  

Ross: The game isn’t really set up to be completed. You just go until your score is as high as you can get it and it gets really hard as you go. It starts off really easy. So, yeah, that’s how I went about it. I don’t know if that’s the most specific answer that I can give, but … 

Arsalan: No, that’s very good. So, what you’re describing is how most software is built. This is how we do it in big corporations and small companies. The only thing that you could’ve done to get a big picture of what you’re doing and have a little more process would be to create these cards with your tasks. We call them user stories. “I want the user to be able to do this.” So, then you say, “In order to create this story, I’m going to now create these tasks for myself or for somebody.”  

Arsalan: We need to do these five things in order to achieve this big thing for the user because what’s really important is the user experience. So, you want the user to be able to fire a laser and destroy a tank. Then, in order to do that, you need to do these five different things and this one thing depends on that other thing. So, you have the idea of dependency.  

Arsalan: So, then you know that the thing that is the most independent is what you work on first. So, you can have … we call them swim lanes. So, basically, you have lanes. You can set up three lanes. The first one could be the backlog for all the things that you need to do. Then, the second one would be the things that you are working on right now and the third one could be for the things that are done. So, you get an idea of what’s left and what’s going on. That’s the only thing that I can think of that you could’ve done if you wanted to be more organized. 

Ross: That’s a good idea. 

Arsalan: If you get more professional or you get more serious, then you could have a couple more of … a backlog would just be like a bucket of things. If you have an idea, you create it, you type it into the program, and then you throw it into this bucket. You don’t look at it. You just keep making it and keep throwing it. Then, in the first swim lane, you put the tasks that you think you should be doing next week or over the next two weeks. Or, you could use post-it notes, for instance. … Then, that’s what you have to work on and you have a good picture of what’s already done. 

Arsalan: If you’re stuck somewhere and you don’t really know whether you should be doing this, you could have another lane for things that are on hold or something like that. So, this is called a combine system. This came out of the company, Toyota, that makes cars. You can also call it Just in time development. 

Arsalan: So, you have this system and you can do it on a whiteboard. You could do it on a whiteboard with sticky notes. That’s fine, but there are lots of tools now. There are lots of websites that let you do that for free. There’s a website called Trello, for instance. That’s free, and there are several others. In any case, with good organization, you’ve got a good picture of what you’re doing. That’s the only thing. Otherwise, you did it perfectly. 

Ross: Well, I appreciate that. The only thing that would lack on that much planning upfront is the fact that I don’t know what that kind of planning looks like. 

Arsalan: Believe it or not, this is the least planned software system. Software development used to be super planned. You had to make a hundred-page document and then you had to follow it. That’s how a lot of development happened. That’s how a lot of us learned how to do programming in the corporate world.  

Arsalan: What this is called is Agile development, where you’re not actually planning too much, but you just want to get a handle on where you are. The idea for doing this is not so that you can manage your work or …. so that you do this many features or eight hours of work. That’s not the goal.  

Arsalan: The goal is making sure that you’re working on the right thing. You’re not working on fluff. You’re not doing busy work because you’ll see it in front of you. You’re working on this thing. On the left, you’ll have all the things that you need to get done this week. You wrote it yourself and that’s more important than this little thing that you’ve been working on over the last two days that doesn’t actually provide any value. So, that’s what that is for … just to see how you prioritize and stuff.

Arsalan: That’s what I like about this, and unfortunately, in the corporate world, we don’t follow that a lot. What needs to happen is that the person writing the code needs to be making those post-it notes. Ross, if you’re the one doing the work, then you should be the one writing the tasks. It’s not me, if I’m your manager telling you that you need to do these three things by next week. That is not Agile. Moving on. 

Arsalan: I think that this has been really fascinating and we’ve gone on for almost 54 minutes. So, I think we should give our listeners a break and our viewers. This will hopefully be on YouTube at some point. … I want to thank you for letting us know about yourself, your story, and telling us a little about your app. What I would like to do is have you come back and talk about your app – maybe show us a little about the code and how it is done to inspire others. Maybe somebody would take inspiration from you and build something of their own. Or, maybe they collaborate with you. All of these things are possible in our world with social media and in our world where things are out in the open. We like to share. That’s wonderful. I’d also like to learn a little more about your musical journey and your music theory. I think that’s a fascinating subject especially for me. So, we’d like to have you back as long as you have the availability. 

Arsalan: So, how can people get in touch with you? 

Ross: The best place to find me is on YouTube. I post pretty regularly there. Also, my website today looks like a mess. I probably haven’t looked at it in a year because I’ve been building other people’s [websites], but it’s www.musicandguitarlessons.com. 

Arsalan: That’s because you didn’t have the combine board. See, you forgot. 

Ross: No, I do have one of those for SEO work, but this has been the creature in the closet that’s been poking its head out. So, within a day or so … I’m actually just wrapping up the new version and that’ll be up and looking a lot better – musicandguitarlessons.com and they can also check me out at Patreon/RossTheMusicTeacher. 

Arsalan: Okay. So, what can they get out of Patreon? Do you give them something if they join? 

Ross: Yeah, totally. I go in there and answer people’s questions and a lot of the questions in there end up as videos. I’ve got a couple of tiers that are limited in slots where you can get a half hour session a month with me or an hour session a month with me, depending on which tier you’re on. Patreon is a newer thing for me. 

Arsalan: Okay. 

Ross: I’m still fleshing it out. 

Arsalan: How is it working out? 

Ross: I like it. I think it’s a good way to stay in touch with my audience. The mobile app helps me stay in touch. 

Arsalan: Okay. All of the links that we talked about — to his websites as well as Patreon and all that, they will be in the show notes for this episode. You know how I was talking to my audience about the format – for the show notes, it’s always the same – it is scientdev.wpengine.com/episode, and then the number of the episode. … If you go there, you’ll see a transcript of this podcast, what we talked about, and it’ll have the show notes and anything else that Ross likes to share. … and his book. He’s written a book and it’s doing really well on Amazon. 

Ross: Yeah, it’s one of the bigger sellers. It was on the bestseller list a few times. So, if you guys check out Music Theory in One Lesson, you can get the book, and also just Google music theory and my video will pop up. 

Arsalan: Yes. It’s an excellent video. I recommend it. I think, Ross, that you’ve offered to send me the book so that I can go over it and share it with my audience and I can share my experience. I would absolutely love to learn from it. 

Ross: Well, thanks for having me on. I look forward to the next time. 

Arsalan: Alright. Thanks, Ross. Thanks, Everybody. See you later. 

Important Links

  • Music and Guitar Lessons 
  • Ross the Music Teacher – YouTube 
  • Ross the Music Teacher – Patreon 
  • Music Theory in One Lesson
  • Trello (Project Management)

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