Mentoring Developers

Mentoring Developers

Helping software developers thrive

Episode 69 – Mauro Chojrin from Standup Comedy to Coding Success

By Leave a Comment

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | RSS

You don’t always end up precisely where you started in your career life, and that includes the industry, but a calling is still a calling. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, at least in the US, it’s not uncommon for a person to change jobs 11 to 12 times over the course of their career life. With that said, once you find your true calling, your ‘dream job’, even if you initially leave the field, it’s easy to see why you might return to it. That was the case with our next guest, Mauro.

Meet Mauro Chojrin, an Argentinian authority on PHP, professional training, and coaching. Mauro dipped his hands in coding at a young age, thanks to the help of supportive parents, a Commodore 64, and an uncle who owns an IT company, but things were not always easy. When his programming took a left turn, Mauro decided to try his hand at standup comedy.

While comedy was fun for a while, it began to pale in comparison to his original love…computer programming. So, Mauro returned to tech and hasn’t looked back since. He gained an education and continued to find ways to practice and build on all those juicy, but essential coding skills. Today, Mauro runs his own tech business focusing on PHP and combines his love to code with his love to teach. Listen to his story in episode 69 now…and don’t forget to say hello to Mauro on Twitter!

Mauro’s Bio:

Mauro is a PHP trainer and consultant from Buenos Aires, Argentina. He’s been teaching programming since 1997. He has learned several different languages and technologies along the way and has been working as a professional web developer since 2003.

Mauro has worked for different-sized companies, acting as an architect, a technical leader, and a project manager among other roles. Today, his main activities aim to help PHP dev teams improve the quality of their deliverables through more streamlined processes.

Episode Highlights and Show Notes:

Arsalan: Hi, everyone. Welcome, once again, to Mentoring Developers. Here we are with a very interesting guest today who was doing programming and had a nice job, but then he got fed up with it and decided to go into standup comedy. We want to know why it happened and what didn’t work. So, are we talking to a software developer or a standup comic? Welcome, Mauro, how are you?

Mauro: Hey, Arsalan. How are you?

Arsalan: I’m pretty good. Tell us a little bit about your foray into standup comedy.

Mauro: Well, the thing is, I was working full time for a large software company in Argentina. At the time, I had it with software. I had been a software developer since I was very young, and I had always liked the standup thing. One day, I picked up a flyer that read Come Study Standup Comedy with Us. I saw this is my chance. So, I went into it and did a couple of shows. I was considering ditching my computer completely. Then, I realize that it would be really hard for me to make a living out of standup comedy. So, I made peace with the computer side of my life and I must say that I do always enjoy programming and stuff. So, I put standup comedy aside and went back into development and computer-related tasks.

Arsalan: So, how long did you stay in the comedy world?

Mauro: Approximately a year and a half, maybe. The other thing that happened was that once I decided I wasn’t going to pursue it as a career, I still wanted to keep doing it because I really enjoyed the activity. Then, I got married and between all the preparations for the wedding and my two teachers that were fighting between each other… there wasn’t really much to go back into. It’s one of those things where you say to yourself, “I will pick it up later,” but that day never came.

Arsalan: Tell me honestly. How much of this was your wife’s idea to quit?

Mauro: I thought about quitting, for real. I never really wrote any…

Arsalan: You realize that there’s no money here. In software development, as boring or as repetitive as it can be, it’s still one of the best careers and you could make a pretty good living and software development. All of us have realized that. I went into artistic endeavors in my own life. At one point I had considered leaving software development because I thought I was good at other things. Then, I realize that software development is pretty cool. You can carve your niche. You can make a good living and you sometimes it’s just a give-and-take. So, it’s wonderful.

Mauro: Yeah, it’s about finding the niche to make it interesting for yourself. I usually consider myself a very creative person and I don’t like doing the same things all the time. Yet, I think it’s very possible within the software industry to have many different roles.

Arsalan: You can have different roles within the company. The company can change directions and start to do different things and you can get involved with that. Or, you can change companies. You can move around. You can move to different countries if you don’t have opportunities where you are. Okay, that’s pretty good. Take us back to when you were a kid and you said that you got into programming early. What was your first experience with programming and how did you know that there was a thing called programming?

Mauro: Okay, it came from my parents. They bought me a, I don’t know if the audience will be familiar with this computer or not, a Commodore 64 computer. It was an 80s something computer. Back then I was eight. My father has a younger brother who got into computers back in the 70s and he did really well. So, at some point, he said that this was what he wanted for his kids. So, as soon as I learn my numbers and things he went out and bought me a computer. They immediately sent me to a programming course on Logo. You know, the little turtle thing?

Arsalan: Uh-huh.

Mauro: I must say that it didn’t go well. Each time I was in the class, I would do the exercises and everything, but when I got home, and I tried to show my dad what I had learned, things never worked. In my own computer, things did not work. That was very frustrating, I have to say. So, for 3 to 4 years after that, I used the computer strictly for games, which Commodore 64 was very good at that.

Mauro: Then, I eventually went to a friend’s house, who was a year older than me. He knew how to program computers. He knew some Basic. I asked him if he could teach me some. He said that he could but that I would probably want to read this book. He handed me a book called Basic for Kids. That was the change and the tipping point. That became the before and after in my life. Before I read the book and after. I got into it quickly. I started developing my own software programs. Back then I was also completely into gaming. So, I tried to develop my own computer games with Basic.

Mauro: Then, I loaned the book to another friend of mine, who is in the same classroom as me. He also got very excited about it. Then, he bought the second part of the book, which was Advanced Basic for Children. I remember that the cover of the book had a Mr. Potato Head. The first book was to end the second book was three and they covered more advanced topics. The funny thing is, this other friend of mine did not have a computer in his own house. So, he would come to my house on a fixed day every week like a Monday or Wednesday or something and we would create our little programs. Back then, I created mostly conversational games. The graphics were very limited with that. That is pretty much what got me into computers. Besides a standup comedy, which we were just discussing, I never really went very far with it.

Arsalan: Yes. That’s the one wonderful thing about programming. It’s a wonderful skill to have. My daughter is eight years old and she’s learning to program. She has been doing programming for two years. She’s been doing it in Scratch. Now, I’m getting her involved in Python. She likes it. It’s a little boring, obviously, but it’s not like playing games. Yet, it is captivating. You can probably keep her interest for a few minutes and that’s enough to teach her a little bit at a time.

Arsalan: It’s a skill and you get to make things. Everybody likes to make things and they like to show people what they made. As they get older, they like to do. Then, hopefully, with a few years of experience behind them, they find themselves in college or looking for work and by then they have a very good idea of programming. It’s a natural skill for them to get into and it turns out that there are a lot of jobs there. There’s a lot of background noise there. Is there a lot of traffic? What’s going on?

Richard: There are some construction workers around here. Sorry about that.

Arsalan: I just wanted to see where the noise was coming from. We can probably cut some of that out. Will see what happens.

Richard: Okay.

Arsalan: This is how you got started. You were a kid. You got interested. Did you ever go to school, a college or university, and study it?

Richard: Yeah. When I went to high school, it was a technical high school. So, I had some programming courses during the first couple of years. After the third year, every kid got to choose their own major. It wasn’t called that because it was in high school, but that’s essentially what it was. So, I chose ‘computering’ and I had programming courses, all the competencies and everything surrounding computers. So, that was interesting.

Richard: Most of the topics I didn’t have mastery of, but I had an idea of what they were talking about. Yet, I did learn a lot about the computer hardware stuff and what goes into it. Afterward, I went to a university. Technically, I don’t have a degree in computer science, but it’s mostly because I never went to a university to ask for it. I completed all the courses and submitted my CCs a couple of years ago. So, I completed it, but I never went to get my degree. Once I was working and everything, I never really saw the need for it. It’s one of those things where I have to do it and stop nagging about it

Arsalan: So, you don’t have any degree right now, but you finished enough classes that you could’ve had a degree by now with computer science?

Richard: It’s a matter of having a piece of paper. I have all the credits and such. I have a degree as a technician for my high school, but that doesn’t really count for anything.

Arsalan: The reason why I’m asking is that many of our listeners and viewers are in the same position. They believe they can do programming, but they don’t have a degree. Or, they have another aptitude, but they don’t have a degree. So there wondering how they’re going to get hired. Yet, I know for a fact that after a little bit of experience, nobody cares what degree you have. So, that’s why I’m pointing it out. Did you ever bother you or cause you any issues getting a job or getting a good salary?

Richard: That’s funny. The only times that I was rejected because I didn’t have the degree were in teaching positions. It was very little money and very academic environments. Just last year I got involved in a teaching position at a kind of college, but I don’t really know what to call this place. I got through a couple of interviews and was told they wanted me to teach there. However, when I went to sign the paperwork. They told me I needed to attach my degree. I didn’t have one and they wondered why I didn’t have one. It never came up in the interviews and they had hired me. So, I didn’t lie. They just never asked. So, the whole time. They wanted me to go and get it, but I was already teaching the course. It was a situation where if I left the course, they had more to lose than I did. Yet, I wasn’t very happy about the place, or the environment. It wasn’t very serious about their courses and such.

Richard: I have been involved in teaching programming for most of my professional career. When I had finished high school, I stayed in high school as an assistant teacher. Eventually, I had some courses of my own. But, back to the original question. Those were the only situations where having a degree made a difference. Each time I applied and got a job as a developer or a technical leader or any other technical position, the degree was, “Well, it would’ve been nice to have, but it doesn’t really make a difference.”

Arsalan: Yet, you still want to get it. So, what is your motivation for getting it?

Richard: Okay. That’s a good question. In my case, it was when my son was born. I felt that I wasn’t setting a good example for my kids by not finishing. That was really the only reason for me to go in and cross the line. I don’t want my kids to look at me and see me as a quitter. That’s all there was for me, but there are lots of motivations for getting your degree or not getting it.

Richard: For me, it does make a difference if you go to college or if you don’t. If you have no formal training at all, it does make a difference. It’s not so much about finishing and having your degree. I consider that a formality. I liked what I learned at the University. I think that it was a very good education and it was very hard. I had to put a lot of effort into it, but I’m happy that I did it. I don’t think I could do it again, right now. Yet, if I could go back in time, I would definitely do it again.

Arsalan: Okay. You’re in Buenos Aires, right?

Richard: Yes. Exactly.

Arsalan: Okay, so, a big city. How big is it?

Richard: I would say that it’s a little bit bigger than New York City if you count the boroughs and stuff. I’m not really sure, but it is probably more like Paris. That’s probably a fair comparison.

Arsalan: Okay. So, it’s a very large city.

Richard: Right.

Arsalan: So, do you think that because you’re in Buenos Aires that you have an advantage in getting a job? How is the do job situation or job market down in Argentina?

Richard: Definitely in Buenos Aires, there are many companies that can hire you if you are looking for a job. Right now, many people in tech in Argentina are looking to be hired by outside companies. There are economic factors. Our currency is basically divided. So, having a salary in US dollars makes a lot of sense. So, everyone who knows how to speak English can get a job working remote and do. For the guys who don’t have that possibility, there is a lot of work in Buenos Aires.

Richard: There are also a couple of other cities who have been to grow the local communities. At the same time, some local companies have been picking up on the fact that the cost of living outside of Buenos Aires is much cheaper. So, they can pay lower salaries and get the same results. So, being in technology and working over the Internet, makes the geographical location completely relevant. It’s a very interesting time to be alive and working, I believe.

Arsalan: Okay. So, how did you get your first job as a software engineer?

Richard: I was right out of high school. My uncle, who is my father’s brother, has this IT company and it was natural for me to go and work with him. The relationship between him and my father wasn’t exactly fluid, but I approached him and asked if I could work at his company. He asked what I could do. And I began as tech support. I was frustrated by it because I saw classmates of mine who had already been hired as developers. They were very much junior developers, but they were doing development while I was reinstalling Windows and boring stuff.

Richard: So, I went to my uncle and asked if he could move me to more challenging work. He did and then I eventually ended up in a developer position, but I had the same salary as I started with. That wasn’t very cool, but… The whole experience was very weird because between him being my uncle and me being his nephew and employee wasn’t very clear. So, I eventually left that company to go into teaching. That’s when I went to teach at my high school. There was about half a year between the moment I left school and the moment I began teaching there. In the beginning, I held two part-time jobs. One of them was teaching and the other was working for my uncle. At night I would go to the University, but I went couldn’t really keep it up. So, eventually, I left the company and stayed with the teaching position.

Arsalan: Okay. So, you started off and had to struggle. So, you had to find a good job. You are starting out. You were working at your uncle’s place because that’s easy. Getting a job in a big company would be your goal because of a secure salary and all that. Was that your goal?

Richard: No. I don’t think that was my goal. I must say that I haven’t been a very goal-oriented type of person. I’m not one of those where do you see yourself in five years type of people. I’m always like “oh, I have no idea.” I more of a “this is what I want to do now and all figure the rest out later” type of person.

Richard: When I was finishing at high school, I was very sure that I wanted to work at my school. I knew they would usually hire former students. I applied there, and they didn’t give me the job. Yet, eventually, they had an opening that needed to be filled. So, they re-contacted me. I don’t think I had a very clear picture of where I wanted to go. I knew that my job at the school wasn’t going to last forever. The money was good for a student, but not for a grown-up. I stayed there for approximately eight years. As I moved closer to the finish line at the University, I would pick up freelance gigs to supplement my income.

Arsalan: So, while you were teaching at your high school, what technologies or techniques were you teaching?

Richard: when I first started, I believe we were using Pascal. I don’t know if anyone will remember this language.

Arsalan: I remember Pascal.

Richard: I have to say that it was my first love.

Arsalan: Yeah, it was a good language to learn.

Richard: I really liked it.

Arsalan: The whole language was invented to be used as a tool for teaching programming.

Richard: Still, I did some pretty nice things with Pascal. We eventually went into C++, some Visual Basic and some ASP. They were all version 3.0. They were nothing like .NET. By the time I left, we were starting to toy around with Java. We also did some Visual Fox and stuff like that. Most of my teaching was in programming. There were other subjects that were more theoretical like database design and stuff like that, but I wasn’t teaching those all the time.

Arsalan: That’s pretty early in high school to be learning about, not just the idea of programming, but to also be writing entire applications and making websites in ASP and Visual FoxPro, which is very specific that let you do a very specific thing. It’s usually for business users and non-programmers and such.

Richard: Right.

Arsalan: It almost seems like these are skills to get a job.

Richard: Yep. That was the vision for the whole school. It was to prepare the kids for life after you get your degree at 18 or 19 years old. You could go out and get your first job as a junior developer or something like that. It was mostly developers.

Arsalan: Is that normal in Argentina to go from high school to a job?

Richard: Yeah. Definitely. People, usually people who go to the University or college, work between classes. In relation to what happens in the US or the UK or something, until they are advanced or finished with the University. It is much more of a concentrated thing here. If you live outside of Buenos Aires, it is much more common to come to Buenos Aires to study here. Yet, if you are local to Buenos Aires, you can commute to the University in about 30 minutes or so. So, it doesn’t really make much sense for you to live somewhere else unless you want to and can afford it. Right?

Arsalan: Right. Okay. So, you got that teaching job and then you quit. I’m assuming that after that you got a job at a commercial enterprise?

Richard: Kind of. After that, I took my first real bite at freelancing. So, I decided to plunge in and see what happens. So, I quit my job at the school and I took on a couple of clients but looking back I can see that I wasn’t ready for the human relationship point of view. So, that didn’t really go very well for me. I eventually took a regular job. I don’t remember now what it was that I was doing, but it was probably something like programming or project-management or something like that. It was a very weird situation.

Richard: I got to work for a very big company. They had won a contract with General Motors to provide support for all their Latin American users, but they had to support some applications that were developed by another company. In order to do that and keep the costs low, they subcontracted some people in India to do the actual maintenance. So, my job was mostly a translator because the Indians wouldn’t speak Spanish in the people in Latin America wouldn’t speak English. So, I was writing messages all around. Yet, when you think about it from a distance, you can see, there was no way that could end up right. Basically, what I noticed very early on was that the code was written by Spanish-speaking people. So, all the value names and the function names etc. couldn’t speak Spanish. So, for them, it was complete. Gibberish. It was a real nightmare.

Arsalan: I can imagine. I have never experienced anything like this, but I can totally imagine it. The whole point of using your universal programming language is so that everybody can understand it, but we forget that within the programming language, we have these different names. And if these names are in a different language, I can completely understand…

Mauro: It was madness. For me, because the way that it was fractured, I couldn’t really put my hands into the code. I was forbidden by contract to do any actual coding or anything like that. So, I had to tell the Indians what they needed to do, and it was a real mess. What you said about the language, it’s something that I did. I took it upon myself to decide that the code would be 100% English. We have this expression. I don’t know if you’re familiar with it, but it’s called ‘Spanglish.’

Arsalan: Mm-hm

Mauro: So, when you look at the code and it’s in Spanglish, it’s like “whoa, no way.”

Arsalan: So, that was pretty interesting. Now, which technologies are you excited about? What are you working on these days?

Mauro: Okay. So, these days, I have a mix of things. First, I have a couple of consulting clients. Some of them I do development for. For the last 10 years or so, I’ve been using PHP. The first time I used PHP, I think it was version 3. I thought it was gibberish. All the dollar signs and such made no sense. You know how it is. Somehow life took me from one PHP project to another. Eventually, I got to know some real frameworks and then thought “Okay, now we’re talking about a different thing.” Since then, I’ve been mostly using the Symphony framework, which I really like. I think it’s a very professional way to develop applications. So, right now, that’s mostly what I do.

Mauro: When I have to face a new development project, I will set up my repository and everything and create a new Symphony project, and then start coding. I like using virtual machines. I like toying around with Docker. I haven’t really made sense of it yet. I failed to see the difference between Docker and Vagrant, which is what I use nowadays. That’s pretty much what I do for this client. On the other hand, and this is probably why am talking to you, I also do some mentoring for developers. I like to take a project and I’ll look at somebody else’s code and let them know what and where they can improve and address why it makes sense.

Mauro: I also like to help other PHP developers live it up by producing higher quality code and etc. The thing is, PHP has a bad reputation out there. It’s mostly due to bad programming practices. I think the language is too open. You can do basically anything you want. You can do very good stuff or you can do very bad stuff. It’s up to you, which can be a blessing sometimes and other times it’s a curse.

Arsalan: Right. So, if you’re trying to build a quick website, and you prefer prototyping and want to show something within a few hours to a client, if you’re good with PHP, then you can do something quickly. You can put something out and set it up nicely.

Mauro: I don’t usually create public-facing websites. Most of the time I use applications like intranets and stuff. It’s more like corporate applications if you will. Some time ago, I discovered a little planning for Symphony, that allows for very rapid prototyping, a fun little fact for the Spanish speaking people out there. I uploaded a video of myself creating an admin panel within 20 minutes using this and it works. So, for prototyping, it’s great. A couple of command line comments and you’re good to go.

Arsalan: Send us the links for that and will put that in the show notes. If you’re listening right now or if your reviewer and you want to see what he’s talking about, I’ll put a link to… Is this a blog post? Is that what it is?

Mauro: Well, this is a YouTube video. It’s a very short screencast. It’s in Spanish, but someday I will do something in English as well.

Arsalan: It’s a good idea. You speak very naturally. What you could do is let people translate. I think Google has a translator for YouTube. You could turn the captions on and it automatically tries to translate. If you’re speaking clearly from Spanish to English, I would think that it would be fairly easy to do.

Mauro: Okay.

Arsalan: But, if not, then you could type your own translations. So, you could type it in and then people would see it and then you don’t have to make another one.

Mauro: Okay.

Arsalan: The other thing you could do is, if you have a blog post that’s in Spanish, you could use Google’s translate feature to translate it automatically into English.

Mauro: Right. Well, most of my material is in Spanish. For one thing, it’s easier for me. For another thing, I’ve realized that there’s not as much content in Spanish as there is in English. Many people in my local area, particularly, are not so good at English and are falling behind. It’s not that they aren’t smart enough, it’s that there is a language barrier. So, I’m trying to fill that gap as much as I can.

Arsalan: I guess that’s a wonderful idea. You should stick with it. There are many countries, not just Argentina, South America-most of it, and even Mexico and other places. You’ll have a lot of audiences. You won’t have any trouble finding users, but if you also wanted to reproduce the content, then you could use the auto-translate feature.

Mauro: I’ll look into that. Thanks.

Arsalan: So, we put a link to your blog post or any blog post that you want to highlight and also this video that was talking about. It’ll be in the show notes. So, if listeners or viewers want to check it out, then the link will be on the page itself, but you could go to mentoring developers.com/episode 69, which is this episode number. Then, they will get all the links and the transcript and all that other good stuff.

Arsalan: Okay. So, this is good. So, you have all this experience and you’ve been doing programming for all those years. Now you are doing PHP and you’re using a framework that you like and your teaching. What’s the future look like? I know you don’t like to plan ahead, but where do you see yourself?

Mauro: The thing is, I started on my own about three or four years ago. I didn’t really have a very clear picture of where I was going. It was sort of like that time when I thought I wanted to do standup comedy. I didn’t really want to do any more development. Time went by implants were not coming together as fast as I needed them to. So, I realized that it wasn’t programming that I was trying to get away from. I had been in a state of burnout from my last job. So I took a couple of steps back and decided to do some programming for clients and stuff. That is how I’ve built my business so far. Then, I got back into teaching and realized that this was my real passion.

Mauro: I really like teaching and the combination of teaching and computers. That’s my sweet spot. I took some of the material for my consulting practice and focused on my brand. I call it Leeway Academy, which was originally a separate unit from Leeway Consulting. Yet, now it took over. Leeway Consulting is gone. I’m putting all my energy into Leeway Academy.

Mauro: What I’m doing now is trying to focus more on corporate clients. I’m trying to help establish teams. It’s funny because I know many PHP leaders who are not very knowledgeable about their own tools and technology. It’s not that they didn’t want to, it’s more of someone came over from another tech stock and led a group of developers and he may not have had as much expertise as thought. So, that’s why I want to be able to help.

Mauro: I want to approach a team and help sharpen their skills and bring them up to speed, which is what I was doing when I was employed. At my last job, I used to be a technical leader. I think I did okay improve the development processes and stuff. So, that’s what I want to do for others.

Arsalan: That’s wonderful. So, you do a lot of teaching. Teaching is one of the most fulfilling, rewarding things that you could ever do. I enjoy it. So, if you want to give advice, not just people in Buenos Aires, Argentina, but also the rest of the world and especially South America to people who are in high school right now and have never done any programming and are interested in it, do you have any advice for them?

Mauro: When you were stating the question, I was running some ideas through my mind and first, I would say to learn English. Go ahead and learn some English. I think anyone can learn how to program. It’s more of whether you want to do this or not. The only way to know this is by doing it and seeing if it sucks or makes sense for you.

Mauro: One thing that I recently did, and I’m really fascinated by what happened is I ran a little experiment. I have a five-year-old son and I started him with some scratch and stuff. He’s probably too young to understand some of the concepts like variables and stuff. So, I actually did the programming for him. I wanted to teach them something. He asked me ”What do you do. Dad?” So I told him I would show him an example.

Mauro: I took this board game that he has, which is called Ladders and Slides. It’s a very common game. So, I told him “Assume that I had never played this game. Teach me how to play.” So he told me to take the dice and throw it and move the little doll as many steps as the dice. I took notes of everything that he said. By the end, I had a complete algorithm of how to play this game.

Mauro: It was fascinating because I thought that this is how programming should be taught. It’s a very simple game. Everybody knows how to play it and it’s very easy to explain. By the end, I was fascinated that it has all the structures of programming. The game continues until somebody hits the last mark. When you land on a certain spot, you get a conditional. Does it have a ladder? Does it have a slide? So you could go with the variables of the position of every character in the game.

Mauro: So, I would probably ask questions like “do you like logic games?” It’s very much like math. I wasn’t into math until I was at the university level. Still, I love playing with computers and programming. I think it comes down to that. It’s more of an exercise into your own personality. When you’re doing something. Do you work on it until it cracks open or do you get frustrated with it? I think it’s more of that than anything else. You must know yourself and which activities you like to do.

Mauro: This is something that I used to tell my students. If you go into it, and it’s hard, you don’t quit. You don’t quit because it’s hard. You quit because you don’t like it. That is the thing. You don’t quit. You don’t give up. The frustration that you get by giving up is hard to bear. If you quit because you don’t like it, that’s fine. You’re not obligated to do it. There are many other things you can do.

Arsalan: I think this is great. Yeah, this is wonderful advice. Don’t give up. Folks, if you are listening to this podcast right now, don’t give up if you are stuck because everybody gets stuck. There are things that you don’t know about programming, in general. There are also things that you don’t know about what you are trying to do. Sometimes we know the programming bit. We know how to write the loops and how to construct the programs, but we don’t really know what we’re trying to do. That keeps changing. Go ahead.

Mauro: Oh no. I was going to add a little piece to that. If you get stuck right now, there’s always going to be somebody who has the answer or can help you get there. It’s like when I started, I had my book on my shelf and if my answer wasn’t in the book, then that was it. I had to figure it out for myself. Right now, you get Stack overflow. You can all sorts of different online forums where you can post your questions. It’s also a matter of persistence and dedication to getting the thing done.

Arsalan: Yeah, sometimes you find yourself stuck on a problem for a day or two and you just need to walk away from it and do something else and sometimes it just happens. So, this is a problem that we all have. The only way to solve the problem is to persist. Keep doing it.

Mauro: Absolutely. That’s my advice. Persist. Never give up.

Arsalan: That’s pretty good advice. So, let me ask you this one final question because we’re coming to a close. Imagine I am a young person in Argentina or maybe another city in South America and I’m listening to this right now and thinking “Yeah, well, that’s easy. I can start it, but there are no jobs where I live, and Mauro is saying that you can just learn English and get projects, but I don’t know how to get projects. How am I going to get clients? Nobody knows me.”

Mauro: That’s a good one. Well, first, I’d like to make a clarification that if you don’t know English, there are some websites where you can go and take projects from Spanish-speaking clients. The reality is that most of my clients are local. So, they don’t care if I speak English or not. I speak Spanish with them all the time. You can play the card of the big city on me anytime, though. Let’s leave that for a second.

Mauro: The thing is, right now, you have so many tools available to make yourself visible. At the very basic, you can participate in online forums. Go writing. Even if you don’t think you can. You can always ask or write or somehow participate. Start getting to know people. Networking is by far the most important thing that you can do to get a job or get freelance gigs or whatever your goal is. Networking is the number one priority for everyone. That’s one thing. You also have to get out of your head as much as you can and be open and exchange with people. It doesn’t really matter what you do. That’s one thing.

Mauro: If you’re trying to get noticed by a recruiter or something like that, one of the things that I’ve seen recruiters do is put more importance in the code that you can show. So, if you code for fun, just make sure you load it to Github or some other public repository, so you can send the link to anyone. That’s another thing that can give you some authority.

Mauro: Another thing you could do is contribute to open source projects. That’s something that may require a little more expertise on your side, but it’s not exclusive. I’ve seen some open source projects that have been coded very poorly and even if you can’t contribute code, you can still contribute some feedback or documentation or something. It all revolves around the same principle, which is getting to know people. You get to interact with as many different people as you can. Eventually, it will come. If you’re persistent enough, opportunities will appear. It doesn’t matter where you live, as long as you have a slightly decent Internet connection, you’re fine. You can do it.

Arsalan: That’s pretty good advice. All right. If you’re listening to this podcast right now and you want to get in touch with Mauro, all you have to do is go to www.mentoringdevelopers.com/episode69. You’ll see his contact information. You’ll see his blog post and YouTube links and all that good stuff. You’ll also have the transcript for this interview. So, you could read it if that’s easier for you. If you want to get in touch with me, just email me at us.mentoringdevelopers.com. That’s just the fastest way of reaching me. I’ll get the emails, personally, and I’ll look at it and answer it as soon as I can. Then, will go from there. If you want to be a guest on this podcast, if you have something amazing to share, or if you’re like Mauro and you want to inspire other people, just let me know. Otherwise, send me your questions and will see if we can get them answered.

Arsalan: All right, it was wonderful meeting you, Mauro. Am I saying your name correctly?

Mauro: You are.

Arsalan: Excellent. Awesome. That’s good to know. I really don’t want to mess that up. Usually, before the interview, I like to go in and make sure that I’m saying the name correctly. Today, we were crunched for time, so we just started. What I don’t want to do is say something that’s inappropriate. So, that’s good.

Arsalan: So, for anyone out there who wants to be a software developer, and if you don’t really know English very well… Mauro, can you give us a 10-second inspirational speech in Spanish so people can hear it?

Mauro: [Mauro issues message in Spanish]

Arsalan: Gracias. That’s awesome! Alright, Everybody. We’ll see you in another episode and its goodbye from here.

Important Links

Thanks for Listening!

Do you have some feedback or some advice for us or our audience? Please give us a review on iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or Stitcher and share your thoughts.

If you found this episode useful, please go ahead and share it with your friends and family. You can also listen directly and give your feedback on the website.

You can subscribe to Mentoring Developers via iTunes, Stitcher Radio, Spotify, or Google Podcasts. 

Episode 68 – Richard Kronick on Paving the Path to a Coding Career

By Leave a Comment

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | RSS

From teaching English in China to diving into learning how to code, our next guest is ready to rock out in tech. Yet, from a beginner’s perspective, just how do you do that? How do you go from zero to digital code-craving hero in a matter of months?

Meet our next guest and coding newbie, Richard Kronick. Richard hails from Omaha, Nebraska, but has an interesting past. He spent a number of years in China where he taught English and spent his time learning Chinese by engaging the community where he lived and getting lost on city buses. You heard that right. Sometimes you must get lost to learn something new. Now that Richard is back home stateside, he’s fallen in love with the world of tech…and that’s code talk for programming, of course. Listen in as Richard weaves his tale and Arsalan offers up suggestions and guidance to help pave a path for this up-and-coming coding champ.

Don’t forget to say hello to Richard on Twitter!

Richard’s Bio:

Richard is the co-founder and CEO of Kronick Enterprises, a passive income website development company. 70% of all the websites the company has produced currently receive thousands of daily visitors via organic search results. He has experience with HTML, CSS, JavaScript, and WordPress.

 

In August of 2018, Richard decided to become a software engineer and is working towards this goal. He is enrolled in a .NET class where he has been learning C#, ASP.NET MVC, Entity Framework, SQL Server and Object-Oriented Programming concepts.

 

Previously, Richard spent 13 years as both an English and Chinese instructor, having learned Chinese while living in China. He has taught at both the high school and university level. He is also a life-long learner and student.

 

Richard believes in a life of service – that the great goal of life is to be useful and that achievement without fulfillment is empty – and a life of continuous growth. He hopes to join an organization where he can be a part of a team that contributes to the organization’s success and serves its clients and customers.

Episode Highlights and Show Notes:

Arsalan: Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode of mentoring developers. Today I have a very special guest who has a very interesting story about his trip to China where he found himself without any means to learn a new language that he didn’t know how to speak, and he had to learn on his own. Then, he found himself in the situation where he had to overcome something similar that many of us face when we are trying to learn a new programming language. So, let’s hear from him. Richard, how are you?

Richard: Good. How are you, Arsalan?

Arsalan: I’m great! It’s great to have you. So, what happened in China?

Richard: Well, I did a master’s program in Asian studies and I was very interested in Asia at the time. After graduation, I was fortunate enough to find a position teaching English at a university in China. That was really my means to get over there. I was just really interested in seeing things from the ground and I wanted to learn the language. In the beginning, I just thought that I would soar everything naturally. Of course, that didn’t happen. I realized then that I would have to buckle down and really study and work hard. I had a local salary.

Richard: So, I really didn’t have the means to enroll in any sort of program. So, I had to spend a few hours each day with books and audio programs. Then, I realize it didn’t really work so well because when I went out and tried to use the language, what I learned was not applicable. So, I would study a little bit and then go out on the streets. I used to hang out in front of a small corner store. The woman was nice enough to let me sit there and talk to people.

Richard: I used to purposefully get lost on the buses. I would take a bus to a place that I wasn’t familiar with and I get often wander around and then try to find my way home. It was a great experience because I learned a lot. One of the most valuable things from that experience was that I learned a lot of confidence and I realize that if I just pushed myself that I could learn anything.

Arsalan: Yes, but did it work, though?

Richard: Yes. After about a year or so, I started to have basic conversations. That was really exciting in propelled me to want to work harder. After about 2 ½ to 3 years, I felt comfortable with the language. So, yes, it did work, and I think that if I wouldn’t have just jumped out there and started talking to people and being out on the streets and everything, then it probably would’ve taken quite a bit longer.

Arsalan: Yeah, I can imagine. This is so good to hear because this is a life lesson, right? When you are trying to learn something that you don’t know, and it could be anything (plumbing, programming, a new language), if you want to learn something new, then you must essentially put yourself in a difficult situation. The lesson that I learned from this is that if I stick with it and don’t give up, then there is nothing that will prevent me from learning. Some people will have a different capacity. It took you a many you months to a couple of years, but maybe it would’ve taken me twice as long. Yet, I think I can say that I probably could’ve done the same thing if I really wanted to do it badly. That’s the thing. If you didn’t want it bad enough, then you would’ve given up within six months. Would you agree with that?

Richard: Absolutely. Yeah. I study language a little bit here and there in school, like most Americans. I also had to study some language in graduate school, but I never really learned at that well and looking back, I realized that I didn’t know why I was learning it. Yet, when I was in China, I knew exactly why was learning Chinese. I wanted to use it to communicate in everyday life. If you don’t know the ‘why’ then it’s hard to stick with something.

Arsalan: Yeah, motivation is so important. Okay, so let’s learn a little more about you. So, why did you go to China and what got you interested in programming? Tell us a little about your origin story.

Richard: I went to China, in retrospect, because I think I was looking for something different and something exciting. I remember when I got to school that everything felt so dull. I was only planning on staying a year, but it was so stimulating and exciting and challenging, that I ended up staying for eight years because I enjoyed it so much.

Arsalan: Wow. Eight years. I didn’t expect that. I didn’t know that. That’s amazing. So, that’s a very large part of your life. Were you working there? Were you teaching the Chinese to learn English there? Is that where you are doing?

Richard: Yeah. The entire time that I was in China, I was teaching English, which I grew to love very much. It was a great career, but somewhere along the way, I stumbled upon an online course about how to build websites. I had no experience in any way on how to do that, but for some reason, I jumped in because it looked interesting. So much so that I ended up building a business out of it. I’ve been running that business for about three years now and essentially what we do is we build passive income websites with WordPress. It’s great and I really enjoyed it a lot. But I’ve always been curious about what goes on behind the scenes.

Richard: In WordPress, there is a visual side with editing a post or a page and then there’s the text side. I started peeking at the text side. I was a little confused, of course, because I was looking at what I realize now was HTML. I wanted to know more. So, I started googling what was behind the scenes there. That led into a bit of CSS and I try to learn more and become better. As more problems with the websites appeared, I realized that I needed to learn more to become better with them. So, that led a little bit into JavaScript.

Richard: I sort of dabbled in all these things until this past summer 2018 when I took a Harvard online CS50 course. It was about programming. It was an intro to programming and computer science. It was one of the most exciting things that I had encountered in a long time. By the end of it, I’d say that I was pretty much hooked on programming. Since that time, my wife has taken over our business and I’ve been spending all my time learning programming. I was fortunate enough, a few months ago in September to get offered a scholarship through a local nonprofit organization called AIM Institute in Omaha, Nebraska. They have a school called Interface and I was able to get enrolled in their .NET course, which I’m in the middle of right now.

Arsalan: So, is that like a boot camp?

Richard: It’s not a boot camp, no. It’s about eight hours a week in the evenings.

Arsalan: It’s not a boot camp and it’s in the evenings. Okay. So, what is it then?

Richard: I guess the purpose of it would be to provide a foundation, a beginner’s course in .NET. The purpose of this foundation is to develop tech talent in the local area. So, they’re trying to give people a start in certain languages.

Arsalan: So, at the end of it. Do they try to place you or have recruiters come in?

Richard: Yes.

Arsalan: Okay. Yes. That’s a boot camp, maybe a longer boot camp, but a boot camp. A boot camp is usually around 3 to 4 months long and sometimes six months. The purpose is that you go in there and do projects and then you learn all the entry-level skills that you need in order to get an entry-level job and hope you get it. That’s the point. I’ve interviewed a lot of people who have gone to boot camps and I’ve interviewed a lot of people who run boot camps. It’s an interesting phenomenon. It’s a very contested subject. Some people love it. Some people hate it. Yet, I think it’s a worthwhile endeavor. Not everyone can afford it and not everyone has the time that you have. I think it’s awesome that you’re doing that. So, when you were joining this, did you think about the technology that this place offers? Did you say to yourself, “should I be doing .NET?” Or were you uncertain and just thinking that this was the only game in town and “let’s do it?”

Richard: Originally, the only availability was for Cobalt, which I had never heard of before but now I know that it is a language, but it’s quite old.

Arsalan: Cobalt? They’re teaching cobalt? Okay, that’s awesome.

Richard: Yeah, there are still some needs for cobalt here. I read a few articles about how a lot of cobalt programmers are retiring and a large percentage of financial transactions still use cobalt. So, that was a scholarship and I was just interested because I figured that any class, any learning with programming, I wanted to join. Then, they opened it up and offered foundations courses as well. In HTML, CSS, and JavaScript, and then .NET. For me, out of the three, there really was no choice. I wanted the .NET because it felt like I could really make the most use out of that.

Arsalan: Right. Okay, so, for the audience, they don’t know the background for this podcast episode and this interview. I’m talking to you, Richard, because you reached out to me. You listen to the podcasts and you really needed someone to help you, to counsel you a little, to guide you. So, I asked you if you’d like to come on the podcasts and do it live so that other people can benefit from it. You graciously agreed to that. So, this is great.

Arsalan: For anyone who is listening to this podcast right now, pay close attention to what Richard is going to say because we’re going to talk about the problems that he is facing in achieving this goal. Many of my listeners are in the same boat as you, Richard. So, what is it that you are trying to achieve? If you could make a list of goals, then what is your biggest goal right now, or within the next two years?

Richard: I do have a list of goals, but I’m assuming you mean professionally.

Arsalan: Professionally, yes, but we can also talk about personal goals. Personal goals are important. You can’t really separate the professional from the personal, but let’s talk about professional goals for now.

Richard: So, professionally, what I would like to do is be able to work in a team as a developer doing something that is contributing a service in some way that also allows me to be constantly learning. At the same time. If there’s one characteristic or trait about me, then I would say that it’s that I am constantly obsessed with learning. That’s my favorite thing to do. I like learning and then being able to produce or create something and use what I learned to solve problems. So, my hope is to get a position where I can solve problems or create things to help solve problems… to be of service.

Arsalan: Would you like to make money doing that or are you looking to just volunteer?

Richard: I would like to make money doing that.

Arsalan: Okay, that’s good. So, you don’t just want work, you want a job that pays money because lots of people volunteer. I’ve talked to startups and companies and nonprofits that would’ve loved to have hired me and not paid me. There are some causes that I would like to support. There are some startups who I would like to help, but I want money. I need it and I want it and there is no negotiating that. The reason why I pointed that out is that I think it’s very important for you to make a note for it even if you don’t say it out loud because you should know that you want to do good work, but you also want to get paid well for it. And, you should know what that means.

Arsalan: It’s very common in our industry, especially at the junior or mid-level, that companies take advantage of developers. It happens a lot. They don’t want to pay you what you’re worth and you don’t really know what you’re worth. You come off saying that you are not in it for the money. That happens. Then they wonder how much money you really need. So, this is a question that gets asked sometimes. “How much money do you really need to live?” If I needed just enough money to live, then I wouldn’t have spent all these years learning programming. This is a highly valued skill. So, you should value yourself as a developer. If they hire you, then they should pay you well. If they don’t offer to pay you well, then maybe you should reevaluate whether this is an offer worth taking. So, these are some things to consider. Okay, anything else?

Richard: About me?

Arsalan: Any other goals? How about your personal goals? What is your number one personal goal?

Richard: it’s getting into the winter here in Omaha and I like to go for a walk every morning. I’ve been getting a little lazy on that not going out because it’s been about 20°. A goal is I don’t want to miss a single day of walking, regardless of the weather. I would like to spend a little bit more time every day practicing gratitude and writing down things that I’m grateful for, just because I’ve realized over the recent years how important. Being appreciative and grateful is.

Arsalan: This is really surprising, and this is really good. I’ve heard some people talking about this. Gratitude is a surprising thing because we don’t really want to feel grateful. Instinctively, we don’t want to feel grateful because when you’re grateful you don’t want anything else. So, our instinct is, especially for people who live in bigger cities and environments, we want to do more, and we want more. When you stop wanting more. You stop getting more. Then, you fall behind. It’s the fear of falling behind. The idea is that if you don’t grow, then you might stagnate and die.

Arsalan: on the flip side, if you are grateful for what you have, then you’ll have contentment. For personal goals, this is powerful.

Arsalan: Okay, so you want to get a job as a developer, and how long do you have left in this program that you’re doing?

Richard: Approximately one month. It ends in the middle of December.

Arsalan: Okay, and how long has it been so far?

Richard: It’s been two months so far. So, it’ll be three months in total. When I finish.

Arsalan: All right, and how do you feel about this goal? Do you think you’re getting closer to it or do you think it feels elusive?

Richard: Well, I feel like I’m getting closer, but my biggest challenge is I can’t really tell how far I have yet to go. I know that there really is no end and that’s one of the things that’s really attracted to me about learning coding and programming. There certainly is no into the challenge. One of the things I really enjoyed about Chinese was the challenge, but after so many years, the challenge was gone. Yet, right now there are so many different technologies and so many different ideas to wrap your brain around and it’s just hard to know how far along I am, and at what point out fill a little more comfortable, perhaps. I don’t worry too much, though, because I can see that if I just keep working it gets clearer. The biggest challenge is figuring out what I need to be spending my time on and learning and where I get the greatest return on improving my abilities so that I can use it.

Arsalan: Yeah, that’s a valid concern. The one thing that I can tell you is that feeling never goes away. As long as you’re learning, you’ll always feel like you’ll never be ready. There something called imposters syndrome. It’s a very common thing and it happens to pretty much everybody. I have interviewed tons of people and we talk about imposters syndrome all the time. This happens. There is a natural thing where you need a basic set of skills that will help you become successful.

Arsalan: I can tell you this. If you have never been to a code camp, if you have never learned any programming, and know nothing about computers, and if I hired you today to become a junior programmer in a team with senior programmers, in six months. You would be a programmer.

Richard: I do believe that. I do think that on-the-job training is some of the most valuable training.

Arsalan: The reason is not necessarily because when you learn it when you do it. The reason is that when they hire you when they surround you with senior programmers, they expect you to learn from them. Those people are going to hold your hand a little bit and try to teach you. They’re going to give you easier things to do and when you make a mistake, they’re not going to make a big deal about it because they know you’re learning. That’s a problem with our industry.

Arsalan: When you join the company and you claim that you know programming, even if you’ve just done a three-month course and you’ve spent a few months dabbling, they will expect you to produce results right away. That’s a problem. The best way to get your foot in the door for someone like you who still uncertain of how to do certain things is to enter the job market as an intern or trainee of some kind, but those are very hard to find.

Arsalan: Most companies don’t do that. Yet, if you do find a big company that understands that you don’t know, they don’t pay you much-you just pay minimum wage, that’s completely okay. That’s perfect if they put you in projects and let you work with other people. Six months is all you need. So, that’s the one approach that I prefer over all the other approaches that were going to talk about.

Richard: Okay.

Arsalan: If you can find a trainee position, like let me shadow you so that I can learn from you and just pay me $10 an hour and don’t worry about it and you’re willing to work 40 hours a week or as many hours as they’re willing to give you. In this way, you could learn at night and shadow people by day. That would be perfect, and I think that in Omaha you might actually find a job like that. In a bigger city that’s much more difficult. In Omaha, you have a couple of problems. One is that you don’t have many jobs because it’s a smaller city, and so on. Yet, you also don’t have a lot of people.

Arsalan: People from California, New York, and other places are not thinking of Omaha. That’s a benefit that you have. That’s a unique advantage in a smaller city where it’s farther away from bigger cities, you’re sort of isolated. There is a business in Omaha and they need software developers, so they don’t have a lot of choices. This code camp that you’re going to could be a very good deal for you because after having gone through the code camp. The code camp can say that you know a little bit. The relationship with the instructors who are running your program will help because although they may say that you don’t know much, they can say that you’ve at least touched on these things. So, you have a tiny bit of advantage over those other people.

Arsalan: Okay, so when we talk about .NET or any programming platform… For people who don’t know, let’s introduce .NET a little bit. So, .NET is many things and it can mean different things to different people. Essentially, a set of technologies and tools and infrastructure and a whole bunch of stuff, you can create a little ball and call it .NET. You can use .NET to create a website or to create an app for a program that runs on Windows. You can even make something that runs natively in Windows or, Macintosh. Now, you can use .NET to make an app that runs on Android natively, on iOS natively, or pretty much anything. You can even use .NET to build your little IOT devices. So, .NET, now in 2018, encompasses many things. 10 years ago, .NET was very limited. Now, .NET means many things to different people. So, we’re going to distill this down to what you really need to learn.

Arsalan: What if you didn’t want to do .NET? Let’s say that your program didn’t do .NET, so it did another program or platform, and this big ball of technologies. It could’ve stayed in the Java or Java machine land. That’s another option. Those two are sort of competitors. They are replaceable or interchangeable, not really, but kind of in the enterprise. If you want to work at a Fortune 500 company, or a large or more established company or a company that is a non-technology company (like a retail store or a chain of retail stores. That’s not really a technology company. They need computers, websites, and internal systems, but that’s not their main business), for those companies. .NET is very popular, and we’ll talk about why that is.

Arsalan: but if you didn’t have these two Java or the Java ecosystem or the .NET ecosystem, then you could have a different ecosystem. You could be doing open source Ruby or Python and so on. Or, you could be doing something like Perl or something completely different. There are many different programming languages and many different frameworks and technologies are little balls of things that work well together. So, we have all these different little pockets and as a technology company, they need to pick.

Arsalan: For enterprise customers, which means large companies, companies that are not technology focused, but they do have to use technology, often there are choices between the Java ecosystem and the .NET ecosystem. People are moving towards .NET a bit more than Java. Java used to have a bit of a monopoly in the enterprise world and there are reasons for that. The reasons for that is that .NET has a very good and evil ecosystem. It started as small as the underdog to the Java behemoth. Then, it grew in the tooling and the editors that you use on the platforms that you go on, C#, has evolved faster and better than Java. On the Java platform, you no longer need to use the Java programming language. You can use other programming languages that work with the virtual machine. Okay, so that’s the background.

Arsalan: Now, .NET is an excellent choice. If you’re listening to this podcast and you’re wondering which technology stack to use, then I would say that .NET is a very good choice for beginners. Often getting started is the hardest part of starting with a new programming paradigm or a new programming language and such. Getting started is hard. Getting your first Hello World. Getting your first to do app. Getting your first full stack at that you can do something, something happens, and it gets to work, and you can retrieve it, what we call Crud, which is the standard application that can save things and show things and that you can build on. That stuff is super easy and .NET.

Arsalan: So, now, Richard, out of all the things that .NET can do, have you thought about what you want to focus on or do you want to learn everything? There’s only one good answer to that question.

Richard: Well, of course, I can’t learn everything. There’s always the struggle between breadth, how much you need to know about all the different things and going deep in one or two areas. Ideally, you want to become good and one or two areas. I’m uncertain of which of the technologies that I will be most effective with. That’s what I’m exploring now. I’ve been looking at ASP, .NET, MBC. I’ve been learning about entity framework. I’ve been fiddling around with WPS Windows apps for the desktop. Right now, I tend to gravitate more towards the MBC and web development. That could be because that’s just what I’ve been doing and that’s where I feel more comfortable, but I’ve been trying to become more familiar with databases and SQL and entity framework. That’s been quite a bit more challenging. Even after a couple of months of spending all my time learning about this ball that is .NET, it is still a little fuzzy of all the things that can be done with it because the possibilities seem massive. So, I’m still working my way through gaining an understanding of all the possibilities with .NET.

Arsalan: Okay. So, there are two ways of approaching this. You could say “let’s see what I want to learn in .NET.” There is MBC. You might like learning that. There’s MB framework. There is a SQL server database. That’s one way of doing it. The problem of doing it this way is that it creates confusion because you don’t know why you’re doing it. So, you might want to start with the goal. This is what we talked about before this interview when I emailed you. If you start with the goal and you know exactly where you want to be, then you know what you need to do to get there because it’s easy to walk backward. It’s very hard to go forward because you can’t predict. You don’t know. If you learn ASP, .NET, MBC, then you don’t know where it will take you because you literally have not thought about it. So, let’s go back. Forget about the technologies.

Arsalan: The good thing about .NET is that you can pretty much do anything you want. So, start with what you want…the end result. You’re talking about how you want a job. Imagine yourself having that job that you want. You have that job. You’re going there. You’re happy. Monday morning, you are the only happy person in Omaha. So, what is that job? What do you see? What are you doing?

Richard: Perhaps, my biggest challenge is making that picture clear because I know that you’ve got to know what you’re going towards, but for someone who’s only been programming for a few months, I don’t yet have a clear picture of all the roles out there.

Arsalan: Let me help you with that. So, one thing that you could be doing is building web pages and websites, essentially, they would be a lot more complicated than a WordPress site, but they are essentially a website. People are going to go to the browser and type in the URL and then a page will show up and they will do something, and then a new page will show up or some interaction will happen. Imagine something like Gmail. Gmail is a website and it does things that are very complicated. Yet, you can imagine a less complicated version of Gmail. It could be anything. It could be any website that you’ve visited. There are lots of websites made in .NET. If you go in there, you do something and then something happens. You save some records or something more interesting in there happens. So, that’s one thing, making websites and web pages.

Arsalan: Another thing you could be doing is making native applications. For instance, in a controlled room, if you’re in a factory environment where they are looking at different processes and have different machines running… So, on the factory floor, you’re going to have different lanes. A part of something is being manufactured and it goes from one station to another. It’s like a conveyor belt. As an administrator or somebody who’s in charge of monitoring what’s happening, you want to see what’s going on. You’re not going on the web. You don’t need to make a website. You don’t need to because you’re doing one thing. This computer is dedicated to doing one thing. That application can be a native application, which means that it gets installed and it runs regardless of whether you have Internet. That’s one type of activity. You could do for windows or you could do it for a Mac.

Arsalan: Now, imagine that you have a new type of developer whose job it is to make android apps, business android apps. It is essentially the same idea. You go to an app and enter some values and then you see something. You see reports. You see dashboards. You click a thing, and something happens. You could do it for an android. You could do it for an iPhone. You can do it for an iPad. Those are different people and those are different roles.

Arsalan: You could also do something completely different. You could also be the guy who’s responsible for building and maintaining the API, application programming interface, which means that there is no page. There is no user who goes in and types things and makes things happen. It’s just functionality that’s available to other websites, or other human beings, usually, other websites and other services. For instance, Gmail, or Google maps can get the longitude and latitude of addresses. So, if you have an address and you want to see with the longitude and latitude value of that is, they’ll let you do that. You just send them the value and the return something to you. Essentially, it is a machine to machine communication. You can read it, but it’s not really meant for you to read. It’s meant for you to process. So, that’s just backend API work, a web service as a say.

Arsalan: a web service is a term that is often abused in the general media. If you don’t know anything about programming or tech, you might think that Gmail is a web service or a service that is provided on the web. That’s not what that is. If you’re listening right now and you are confused about what a web service is, send me an email and I try to answer it. My email address is us@mentoringdevelopers.com. So that’s something that you could do. You could be in API builder.

Arsalan: Or, perhaps you really enjoy working with and looking at data. In that case, you may enjoy being a SQL ninja. You could write these giant store procedures even if you don’t know any loops or any programming in C sharp. Yet, perhaps you’re good at doing some crazy SQL stuff. What that means is this. If somebody needs to crunch data, if someone needs to solve problems with their data store database, then you might be there guy. That person is completely different and usually, it’s a dedicated job, which is called a DBA. DBA stands for database administrator. So, you could be doing that.

Arsalan: It could be something completely different without any programming. Some people are very good at visualizing a solution to a problem. Some are very good at writing down or eliciting a problem and solution. They are good at going to a customer and explaining the situation to other people so that they understand the full picture. They are tech savvy, but they are not necessarily people who do tech work. They are called business analysts. You won’t find them in small companies, but they do exist in large corporations and that is a very legitimate career. Business analysts could also be former programmers. They could be someone who used to program and has since moved on or they could be someone completely different. I’ve seen that happen and this is a career that pays well. However, there are not so many jobs for this type of profession, but it is a valid thing. If you could work for a Fortune 500 company, then you could probably get a job like that.

Arsalan: Another thing could be a tester or a QA analyst. This would be someone who would make sure that something that you are building or working on does not get passed on to the user before it is good. Their job is not to ensure quality, but rather to validate quality. This is something that I’ve spoken about in the past and it gets developers by surprise. They are like “what do you mean? Their job is to ensure quality.” I’m like “No. As a developer, your job is to make sure that you are putting out quality work. Their job is to see if you messed up. They are validating it. You are ensuring it.” What often happens is that developers decide they’re going to put something out as quickly as possible and let the QA’s figure out if it’s good or not. That’s wrong in my opinion, but of course, there are different opinions out there.

Arsalan: I’ve been in environments where the speed of delivery is preferred over accuracy. If you’re in that kind of an environment, then you don’t have time to ensure anything. Hope is your best policy at that time. So, now you know. These are essentially all the jobs that I can think of. These are all the different things that you could be doing, and all are legitimate, and all will pay you decently. Which of these things attracts you the most?

Richard: First, that’s very helpful. It’s incredibly helpful just to have that all laid out. I can honestly say that most of those I would be generally excited to pursue. There are a few that stand out that I think would be a bit more exciting, or that I gravitate more towards – web development, app development, and actual programming. SQL hasn’t really attracted my love yet. I may be missing something because I haven’t really spent a ton of time with SQL yet. There are a couple of things that I find that I really enjoy, and I just can’t stop until it’s done or solved. One is front and development. It’s the look and the feel of the website in CSS.

Richard: For a couple of years now, I’ve really enjoyed that. What I’ve discovered recently that I also really enjoy is actual programming. Most of what I’m programming in is C sharp. It is such a feeling of elation when I solve a problem or get something to work. When something goes wrong, I enjoy rolling up my sleeves and say to myself, “okay, here’s something to solve.” It’s a great moment when it happens and then it’s nice to move on to something else. For me, it feels like a continuous, enjoyable thing to do. I’m really excited at the prospect of not just spending all my time doing it but getting paid to spend all my time doing that. So, that is helpful to hear that all laid out. I do appreciate that.

Arsalan: So, what I’m hearing is that you like to touch things and have different things happen. You like to see it. It’s the visual feedback. I love it too. I think what you want to do, it seems, is that you want to work on the web, which is very legitimate. You want to make websites that you can tinker with because websites are very fun to tinker with. Not everything is that easy and straightforward.

Arsalan: people who work on APIs are doing algorithms and other things and that’s also satisfying to do because you control so many different things, but it’s not visual. You can’t show it to people. It’s like an art project. You will probably never have an art project in API. You could do it on a website. You could show it to your wife. You could show it to your kids. You could show it to other people and they would be able to see. There is some value in that. So, I think you should stick with web development. You should say to yourself, “I am going to get a job as a .NET web developer. I am going to be a .NET web developer in six months to a year.” Set a date. For you to become a .NET web developer, all you need to do is declare it. From the day that you say, “I am,” you are.

Richard: I believe that.

Arsalan: You don’t need a job to be a web developer. That’s a mindset thing. You must believe in yourself. Right? So, believe in yourself, but back it with something that you’ve done. You’ll be working on projects in this program, this code camp that you’re doing. What I want to do is give you a program that you can follow that will not only give you some important skills, but will also give you the confidence to know that “Yes, I am a developer and I may not know everything, but I am a developer and if somebody hires me, then I’ll show them. I can learn. I can produce results. I will do what it takes to show that confidence. I will do what it takes to show that confidence just by practicing a little.” So, we’re going to talk about this.

Arsalan: if you have a piece of paper, write down ‘goal’. Now, the goal is: I am a web developer in .NET. That’s it. Okay. Set a timeline for that. Let’s say May 2019. On 1 May 2019, you are a web developer in .NET. So, now you have an end goal. This is the place where you want to be, and now, this is the place where you are. So, now we need to put mile markers there. Right? It’s very easy to walk backward. So, now you need to go back and decide that for you to be a web developer on May 1, what do you need to do April 1? Then, March 1. Then, February, and then keep going backward. So, first we’re going to talk about what the mile markers should be and then we’re going to talk about what you should know. These are basic abstract concepts. These are the basic things that you need to know.

Arsalan: I want you to start with the concept. Don’t start with the technology. Don’t start by telling yourself that you want to learn energy framework. Don’t tell yourself that you want to learn SQL. Don’t say that because all that does is box you in. It doesn’t allow you to see the bigger picture. Always come out with the big picture. For instance, you could say “I want to learn how to persist data.” How do you persist data? Somebody is entering information into a form. You want to save it so that the next time they open this form they get that information back. You want a way to persist data. So, how do we persist data? What are the options? What are the pros and cons? And then you’re going to narrow it down until you arrive on the persistence system. There is so much to learn there, and we should go into that.

Arsalan: There are different ways of making websites in .NET. So, let’s talk about one. Let’s talk about the pros and cons. So, let’s do all of that. However, unfortunately, I am out of time, but let’s have you back for a follow-up and then will go through this process. We’ll make the mile markers. Will work on the different technology choices. Let’s take a step back a moment. We’re going to talk about concepts that you should know. Within those concepts, will discuss the technology choices. Then we’ll go over the pros and cons. We’ll discuss everything and then you can ask questions. How does that sound?

Richard: Sounds great. Absolutely. I appreciate it.

Arsalan: Of course.

Richard: It’s nice having help planning out a route from someone who’s already been there.

Arsalan: Absolutely. This is what this podcast is all about. It’s about helping people like you. So, I am so happy that I was able to help you and I think this interview was going to help a lot of other people. So, if you’re watching this podcast, or listening to it, it’s an honor and a privilege that I’m able to serve the community and I get a lot of emails and a lot of people who tell me that it’s helping them, and it inspires them and that’s the whole point. For anybody who really wants it, and they have some aptitude, they can be software developers, but it’s not for everybody.

Arsalan: If you’re not into it, that’s okay. Yet, if you want to, then I want to help you achieve your goals because I believe that the world needs more people from different diverse backgrounds to come into this field and help us a bit. What we have is kind of more of the same. One kind of people. One kind of person. One kind of background. For instance, you bring your Chinese background, your teaching experience with English and when you solve a problem, all that knowledge and all those other things will go into that solution. So, we’re going to build better software in the world. Right? We have talked about this in the past in this podcast and this stuff happens to us all the time. I am very happy that new people are coming into this industry and if I can help them, that would be great.

Arsalan: So, will see you. Let’s schedule something and then will see everyone soon. Okay?

Richard: Also, just a note. Our industry needs more people like you, Arsalan. Listening to your podcast every morning has been one of the best parts of my education.

Arsalan: Well, that’s really good to hear. That’s wonderful. That makes it all worth it. All right, I’ll see you guys later.

Important Links

Thanks for Listening!

Do you have some feedback or some advice for us or our audience? Please give us a review on iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or Stitcher and share your thoughts.

If you found this episode useful, please go ahead and share it with your friends and family. You can also listen directly and give your feedback on the website.

You can subscribe to Mentoring Developers via iTunes, Stitcher Radio, Spotify, or Google Podcasts.