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Meet Cassandra Ferris. Cassandra is not a developer. Nor is she a consultant. Cassandra is a recruiter. Now, recruiters, at least in the tech industry, have in some cases gained a bad rap, but don’t let that stop you from listening in. Cassandra has a unique background and history that is very interesting. Have you ever wondered what it would be like to be a recruiter or how to approach a recruiter? Well, wonder no more. Listen in to episode 44 as Arsalan and Cassandra discuss what life is like for a recruiter. We promise that you won’t want to miss out on this one.

Cassandra’s Bio:

Cassandra Faris is the Talent Manager at Improving, a software development consulting and training company in Columbus, Ohio. She is highly involved in the regional technical community. She is President of the Microsoft-focused Dog Food Conference and Marketing Lead for CloudDevelop, a cross-platform cloud computing conference. She has an MBA in Organizational Leadership and Marketing and is an avid tabletop gamer, runner, and rabid soccer fan who travels as much as possible.

Episode Highlights and Show Notes:

Arsalan: Hi everyone. Today my guest is Cassandra Faris. Cassandra, how are you?

Cassandra: Good. How are you?

Arsalan: I’m doing great and I’m so excited to have you on the show. I’ve been trying to get you on the show because I think you’re very unique.  I can say it easily that you are the most unique of all my guests so far and that’s because you’re not a developer yourself, but you hire developers and you work in Human Resources. You’re a recruiter. Is that right?

Cassandra: That’s correct. I am in charge of talent management for a software development consulting company called Improvement.

Arsalan: That’s awesome. I want to talk to you about all the stuff that goes into hiring and what makes a good developer for you to hire. What do you look for? What do you not look for or what do you try to avoid? But first I want to ask you about something very interesting about your life. You did something in Mexico and there’s some story behind that. Tell us a little about that.

Cassandra: When I went to college my minor was actually Spanish. I spent two summers while in college living in Mexico studying one summer and interning with a human rights group the following summer.  I came out of that experience as a Spanish-English bilingual. Being bilingual is actually the skill set that got me started with recruiting. My first recruiting role was with a diversity staffing agency and I was in charge of hiring and Human Resources for temporary warehouse employees. Throughout the day, my work was primarily conducted in Spanish.

Arsalan: Did you find that challenging?

Cassandra: I did. The biggest challenge when I’m going into a situation where I Have to speak Spanish is just learning the vocabulary. So, picking up the vocabulary for interviewing questions, HR issues as well as speaking the warehouse language was challenging and interesting.

Arsalan: Do challenges motivate you? Is that what gets you going?

Cassandra: It’s one of the things that get me going, yes. I like that challenges. I like helping people develop their careers as well. That’s something I’m really passionate about. In the case of the warehouse employees, several people were new to the country and several were political refugees and others had other situations that brought them here. So, it was exciting helping people get their start here in America.

Arsalan: It’s just so interesting. People have different backgrounds. We tend to assume that everyone has the same experiences as our own. I would never have known that this was how you got started. For me, this was a complete surprise and it’s wonderful because that reminds me that when I get to know people I will learn about their unique experiences and that’s what’s going to help me to have empathy for different situations, which makes me a good person to be around, right? Then, I will not judge people based on outward appearances and I will have the patience to learn about their quirks and unique situations. I think that makes for a better workforce. What do you think, Cassandra?

Cassandra: Oh, definitely. I think that’s part of what makes the world like mine fun and interesting is getting to know different people, their stories, knowing what they want to do and what motivates them and being able to empathize with all their different situations.

Arsalan: Okay, so we know a little about you, Cassandra. We know that you are a recruiter. We know that you got started in a diversity-oriented setting, but we don’t know much else. How do you define yourself right now? Do you see yourself as a 24/7 recruiter? Who is Cassandra Faris?

Cassandra: Well, my role is talent management and community outreach. So, it’s kind of two pieces of what I do. The talent management component is hiring software developers, BSPMs and everybody that supports the dev team and then helping them grow their careers and career skills. On the community end, I actually organize a couple of technical conferences. I speak at technical conferences and I do some marketing as well for my company and it all ties together with growing the dev community and being involved in it and contributing to the dev community as well as learning from it.

Arsalan: Okay. So, right now, your job is to hire people. Do you also onboard people or do you work with them once they’re hired?

Cassandra: Yes. I do onboarding and then once they’re hired, I help people. My employees will come on and they might have a certain career goal that they’re trying to reach or a certain skill they’re trying to pick up. Over time my role is evolving more and more into a role where I do that kind of mentoring and guiding of my employees.

Arsalan: That’s really interesting. I’m wondering if you have to go to school for this kind of thing. Do you have to get a special education to be a recruiter?

Cassandra: Not really. Recruiters come from all different backgrounds. For me, personally, I got my MBA in a focus called organizational leadership and the minor was marketing. The organizational component, specifically the HR component as well as marketing is what lead me to recruit because it kind of marries human resources and marketing.

Arsalan: So, you got your MBA, which is a highly desirable degree because then you can be a manager at a large corporation. I’m assuming that’s one of the goals of getting an MBA. So, what was your first job?

Cassandra: My very first job out of college?

Arsalan: Yes.

Cassandra: I was actually a warehouse supervisor in a greenhouse. I worked for a greenhouse that grew all the plants that ship to like a Lowes or Home Depot. My job was to supervise the employees who worked on that warehouse line. That was also a Spanish-speaking job. I started that job through a staffing agency and then was hired on full time to the company.

Arsalan: Okay. How long did it take for you after you left that job before you got a recruiting job?

Cassandra: There were a few years between there. I did some apartment leasing and some sales. Then, as I was completing my MBA program, I was also selling insurance for Nationwide and over time I decided that a sales job was not really the right role for me. It was a little too transactional for what I like to do. So, when I got my MBA I targeted the recruiting and HR world as a career. I find that more rewarding.

Arsalan: So, that was a conscious choice. It didn’t just fall into your lap. You wanted to become a recruiter and then you had a plan.

Cassandra: Yes. I wanted to do something with HR or marketing, so I didn’t necessarily set out to be a recruiter, I kind of fell into it given those two interests.

Arsalan: Okay. That’s really interesting. How did you start? I’m just wondering if my audience wants to become recruiters how they get started. Do they start off at some kind of internship? Is there a path or a corporate ladder that you have to climb?

Cassandra: There are all sorts of different paths that people take to it. I landed in it in a supervisory role in warehousing. So I’ve come straight from that path and I think that MBA is what allowed me to skip over the entry-level recruiting. But there are people who go into recruiting right out of college. There are bigger companies that will grow and build their recruiters. For me, the more conscious decision was to specifically target the tech industry. As I reached a point when it was time for a change from the warehouse job, I started wanting to be involved in the tech industry as a recruiter. So that was a more conscious decision for me.

Arsalan: You know the next question has to be “why the tech industry?”

Cassandra: It’s fun, interesting, and I’m always learning something. Every day, every person I talk to, every candidate I interview, every talk I go to I learn something new. It was partially the learning and partially the interest in technology, not necessarily as a programmer, but in technology in the way that it impacts our daily lives and the things we can do with it, and also the fact that it’s a growing industry. There’s good stability. There’s good security. There’s very low unemployment. So there are a lot of reasons that made me target that industry.

Arsalan: Do you find yourself going to a lot of developer events, gatherings and meetups?

Cassandra: Yes. I am at several developer events per month. The company I work for actually hosts several of them in our office. So, I’ll go to those are all go to the other ones around town. I’ll also go to a number of conferences. I also go to a lot of conferences because I like to have a high level of understanding of the technologies that my candidates are working with and understand the technologies do, how they’re changing, what the trends are in the industry and keep up to speed on those.

Cassandra: Additionally, I mentioned earlier that I organize a couple of different technical conferences. I’m actually the president of a Microsoft focused conference called Dogfood Con. That’s about a 450 person conference. It has tracks for developers, dev ops, IT, DBAs, as well as software professional skills track. I also do the marketing for a cloud computing conference called CloudDevelop and that’s just a cross-platform cloud computing conference. So, I’m definitely entrenched within the dev community. I have also spoken that a number of different technical conferences and user groups.

Arsalan: Okay. So, you have your hands full. You are immersed in developer culture. You want to be in the know and be in the middle so you can attract the best talent, right?

Cassandra: Exactly.

Arsalan: That’s your goal. I’m putting myself in the shoes of the person who goes to these meetups and conferences, and he or she sees a person who is a recruiter and conference organizer like yourself. But ultimately, this is all in the spirit of finding the best talent for you. Perhaps that person is interested in finding a better job or finding their first job, or just feeling out the work environment and trying to see if there’s something better. But, perhaps there a little bit shy and not really sure what to do in that situation. Yet, they are at that meetup or conference and you are there as well. What would you recommend to that person? Should they approach you? Should they try to email you? If they do approach you, what’s the best way of approaching you? What should they say to you?

Cassandra: Recruiters are usually pretty easy to spot at events. A lot of times will mention that that’s what we do, or if it’s a user group, sometimes a let us announce that we’re hiring. If it’s at a conference, a lot of times I’m working at my company’s conference booth. In any of those situations, the best thing to do is to just come up to me and chat. A lot of times how it looks, is that people will come up to me and they’ll say that they’re looking for a job or their friend is looking for a job and all have a short conversation with them about what they do and then I will have them email me so we can schedule a longer conversation. Usually, I’ll give them my card and asked them to shoot me an email, send me a resume and let’s meet up for coffee, lunch, or just have a more in-depth conversation. But having a little conversation at that conference or event is a good place to start.

Arsalan: So, that person is probably the person who’s trying to reach you or contact you. It’s also possible that there’s a line of people and it’s possible that they are not really sure what to say. Should they say, “my name is so-and-so? This is what I do and if you have any good opportunities, let me know.” Or, should they just strike a more social conversation?

Cassandra: Actually, you can do either one. It just kind of depends on what you’re more comfortable doing. It’s perfectly acceptable to also just come up and ask what skills you’re hiring for, and that’s a good place to start.

Arsalan: Did you know that I interviewed your husband a while back for this podcast?

Cassandra: Yes. I was actually in the house while you were interviewing him.

Arsalan: You were kind enough not to interrupt during the interview.

Cassandra: Yes, we both get each other’s jobs.

Arsalan: Did you listen to that? What did you think of that episode?

Cassandra: I thought it was good. I think there were some good points about how to grow your talent.

Arsalan: Yes, he’s a great guy. We’ve been in touch since then. So, everybody should check out the interview with Jared Ferris and will put the link in the show notes. Also, there’s a whole bunch of notes that Cassandra mentioned about all the things that she’s doing. We will try to have all that the show notes, so that when you are listening to this episode. You can go to www.scientdev.wpengine.com/episode 44 and you will see the transcript for this interview, some links, and all the show notes and a way for you to listen to it in iTunes, and etc.

Arsalan: It’s fascinating for me because we’re seeing your career, your life from the other side. I want people, developers, newbie developers, aspiring developers, all kinds of developers and designers to empathize with your situation because recruiters are unfortunately not the most liked people in our industry. What you do and people like you do is essential for us. It is a service, but sometimes there is an issue with the way that recruiters go about their business. That sometimes creates a situation where there is occasionally hostility towards recruiters. I don’t know if you have felt it.

Cassandra: I have but I don’t feel it very much anymore. But early on there was a little bit of people wondering what this recruiter was doing at the technical meet up. I think I overcame it pretty quickly, by being open about who I am and what my job is as well as my being at the technical events, not necessarily with the goal of hiring people, but more just so that I can learn. Do I hire people at those events? Yes. But is that the goal? No, it’s not the only one. So I think that for me it’s been a matter of building credibility and becoming entrenched in and a part of our dev community and giving back to it, and contributing to it. You know, sharing my knowledge about the things that I talk about and the things that are also important skills for developers as well is just helping support the community through sponsorships and organization, and marketing and promotion. I feel like I’ve helped our community grow and that has helped me as a recruiter.

Arsalan: Imagine I am a software developer and I just got my first job. It’s not a great job, but I’m doing it and it’s been a year or two and I feel like my talents are not being utilized. I don’t have the advancement opportunities at the company. The company is not encouraging me to go to conferences or to improve myself. I am essentially at a dead-end job and I now want to see what else is out there. Perhaps I could get a job as a more senior person or a mid-level person. I don’t want another entry-level job. I want to work in the company that I appreciate somebody who wants to learn and who will essentially hold my hand a little bit and help me grow. That’s what I want. What do I have to do? If you’re somebody who is recruiting for that type of position, what do you want to see in my resume and what do you want to see when you talk to me?

Cassandra: If your company is not encouraging you, you can take initiative to do things on your own, whether that means taking classes online or going to meet ups or doing something to grow your knowledge. Your employer should support it, but they might not always necessarily do that. In general, once you get past about a year to two years of experience as a developer, a whole bunch of opportunities will open up just by virtue of there being a lot of demand for mid-level developers.

Cassandra: One of the biggest barriers to starting as a software developer is getting that first one to two years of experience. Once you’re there, you have all sorts of options. When you’re ready to start looking for something new, you’ll want to start that process early. What you don’t want to do, is you don’t want to wait until you’re so desperate to get out of your job that you take the first thing that comes along. Instead, when you’re making that first move, you want to do is do some research and look at market salaries, the types of companies within the area, and maybe there’s a specific industry that you want to work in and target. So you need to do a little bit of research.

Cassandra: You want to start updating your resume and reaching out to your network. You don’t need to necessarily throw your resume up on a job board yet, but start putting out feelers. Start having those conversations early so that you can give yourself a few months to find the right job.

Arsalan: I want to know about how to craft a good resume for somebody who has maybe a couple of years of experience, but maybe not more than that. Are there different formats? I just want to have an idea of what you think makes a resume that get your attention.

Cassandra: There are a few things. It used to be that resumes were not supposed to be more than one page and that kind of harkens back to the days when resumes were a piece of paper and you only want to look at one piece of paper. Now that they are electronic, it’s okay if they go on to two pages and as you get more senior, maybe on to three pages. The biggest things that I look for on resumes include that I want a summary of what you do, this could be a quick little summary of you telling me that your developer, what you do, how much experience you have and what you specialize in.

Cassandra: From there, I want to see what technologies you have worked with. Obviously, a chronological list of jobs that you’ve had is helpful. On those bullet points where you’re talking about your job, I want to know what you’re doing. I see a lot of resumes that will say things like wrote SQL queries or wrote store procedures or developed .Net applications. That’s great, but what are you doing?

Cassandra: I’d much rather see developed .Net applications for insurance rating software or developed SQL queries for retail data or something that talks about what the software you’re working on does, who the users are, or how it ties into the business. I look for something they give some context, rather than just a list of queries. If you are applying for a .Net developer position, it’s safe to assume you’re writing C sharp. That’s implied. So, what are you doing with that C sharp? What unique components have you created and how are you contributing to the project? That’s all very important to me.

Arsalan: That’s a very interesting thing to hear because the reason people do that is essentially because we’ve been told that you need to have these keywords in the description of those jobs. Some people are searching for C sharp, Java, Ruby, SQL, whatever. What we have been told is that if you have these technologies only in a list of keywords at the top. They want to know where you use these technologies and I think that’s probably what’s making a lot of developers emphasize those skills and technologies inside their job descriptions. But that’s why we don’t think about the function.

Arsalan: I think we have evolved to a point where things have standardized as you were saying that if you are a .Net developer using C sharp, that’s no surprise. But, what you’re doing with that will indicate what industry you are working on and what type of applications you’re making. For me, that’s a good reminder to stay away from very heavy keyword user resumes and resumes that read more like a description. Am I oversimplifying this? A lot of times what we have is bullet points under job names. From what I’m understanding is to not worry about short phrases, bullet points and action words like we were told in college.

Cassandra: You do still want to call out those languages within your bullet points and call out the technologies, but give a little bit more detail about what you’re doing. Created JavaScript components for an updated retail website is much better than simply writing that you “wrote JavaScript.” Just let us know what you’re doing with the technology. Bullet points are good for readability and I do think the action words are still very important (designed, developed, built, created). All those things are still good ways to start the bullet points. I don’t necessarily like seeing resumes that contain a paragraph under every job. It’s hard to read. It’s hard to extract the pieces of information that I need. I do want to touch on the keywords in the keyword component of resumes.

Cassandra: one of the reasons for that is sometimes you apply for resumes online or you post your resume on job boards and they have to be searchable. Resumes get parsed and they pull out the information and the technologies. So, if you’re taking that kind of approach to your job search where you are putting your resume up online and see what comes out, or just kind of blindly applying to companies, then keep the keywords in your resume. I just don’t think that’s necessarily the best way to look for jobs. I think it’s better to go through your network, people you know and kind of try things that way first. In that case, those keywords would be a little less important than they would be if you were just putting, your resume up on a job board.

Arsalan: Job portals are like shark infested waters.

Cassandra: They’re terrible.

Arsalan: You get a lot of recruiters who call you, contact you and email you because your information and your resume are there. An overwhelming majority of these people who contact you don’t really have any way of hiring you. They just want to see if you bite and if you respond to them, then they’ll start the conversation. These are like mass emails people sent automated. They take a lot of time and this is why they’re such a bad reputation for recruiters within the developer community because we get so many of these emails every day. Most of them are just spam.

Cassandra: I’ll let you in on a little secret. Candidates also do that. I get more of the job board resumes that are terrible resumes, than not. There are companies that will actually spam recruiters with resumes of a lot of times there’s subcontractors who they are trying to hire. They’ll just spam us with all these resumes that have nothing to do with the position that the person is applying for. So we get that as well. So job boards are also a frustration on our end. Plus, we are competing with every other recruiter in town to try to get a hold of you. So I am very rarely on job boards. I don’t use them very much in my recruiting. I think in the past two years. I have only hired one or two people off of the job board. That’s all that I have gone out sourced from the job board.

Arsalan: That’s an incredible thing to hear. That’s for all of our interviews are spanned. If you’re developer and you’re looking to get hired, the first thing you do is post your resume online and maybe apply for jobs or just wait. Like we said, most of the times the people who contact you are not going to be the right people. But if you know somebody like Cassandra, somebody was taking personal interest in your career, then you have a better chance. Not only do you have a better chance of not wasting your time, but also for getting a job where the chances of you actually getting hired are higher. You’re probably also going to make more money that way.

Cassandra: Here’s another thing. Another way that you can actually use the Internet. That is a very effective way of applying for jobs is that rather than posting your resume on job boards, update your resume and create a LinkedIn profile, if you haven’t made one. Yes, you’re going to get contacted by recruiters, but if you make a LinkedIn profile, then you can be proactive in your job search. There might also be a company that you really want to work for. Or, you can go on LinkedIn and find a recruiter or a human resources person or maybe, a developer who works there, find those people and contact them through LinkedIn and ask about jobs that way. That way you have a little more control over what you’re applying for, and who’s getting and seeing your resume rather than if you just blindly post online.

Arsalan: I think that’s really good advice. I think we’re coming to towards the end of the interview and it’s been an amazing interview because were finally getting to hear from a recruiter, somebody who will not spam us, but will listen to us and help find the right fit for us. So, we appreciate that Cassandra.

Cassandra: Thank you. Also, I do a conference talk called “Job Search Questions You’re Afraid to Ask.” Those slides are posted up on my LinkedIn profile and the talk actually covers when it is time to look for a new job and what you should be asking about. It also touches on some legal issues, things like non-compete on intellectual property and he gives you some guidance on how to make a decision about what you want to do. When I created that slide deck, I created to be something that could stand alone as a resource. So it might be a good idea to review it. If you are looking for something new and kind of looking for some guidance. It’s not comprehensive, but it does aggregate a lot of years of interviews and a lot of years of helping people to job searches with things that they should be asking about, but don’t necessarily know.

Arsalan: Yes, that sounds amazing. Why don’t you send me the links to your slides and your conferences that you go to and anything else and will make sure to put it on the show notes of the people can go to scientdev.wpengine.com/episode44 to see them.

Arsalan: So, Cassandra, it was a pleasure having you on the show. Before we go, I’d like to ask you if you have any final piece of advice for people looking for jobs?

Cassandra: Anybody who has ever talk to me in person knows this, but I will talk all day long about the importance of having a network. So, start going to user groups. Start going to conferences. Start meeting people in our industry and when you meet those people, stay in touch with them. So, if you meet somebody at a conference, after the conference, send them an email or send them a tweet, or a LinkedIn, however, it is that you like to stay in touch. Grab lunch or coffee with them every once in a while, or just have an online conversation. Because then whenever you’re looking for a job, you can always tap into your network and you can ask them whether they know of anybody who is hiring. For 22 months straight, everybody who I had hired had been through word-of-mouth, through networks. Then, I had one guy apply for a job off of the job board and I hired him recently, but it’s super important to have a trusted network of people who can help you through job search and who you can also help through their job searches. So, I think that’s the biggest piece of advice that I would give.

Arsalan: I think I fully endorse this recommendation. This is awesome. If you don’t have a network or a mentor, if you really want to talk to recruiter and get an idea of your skill set and where you stand, you can contact Cassandra and will have all the information and show notes for you. You can also email me at us@mentoringdevelopers.com or you can tweet at me at @mentoringdevs, or you can also go to my website at scientdev.wpengine.com/episode44 or whatever the episode number is. You can also go to iTunes or etc and leave a comment. We are looking for responses and feedback from all of you because we can then shape the podcast to match what you need. Also, if you go to mentoring developers.com/list, you will be signed onto an email list and you will receive a five email course where I talk about the five best ways of finding success as a developer. It’s really good advice.

Arsalan: All right, Cassandra, I’ll see you later.

Cassandra: Thank you.

Important Links

Dog Food Conference

CloudDevelop

Job Search Questions You’re Afraid to Ask

Twitter: @cassandrafaris

Cassandra on LinkedIn

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Meet Jennifer Cable, software manual tester extraordinaire. Jennifer came from a background blended in fine arts and graphic design in the newspaper field. With news now available online, Jennifer soon discovered that a change in career field was in order for her and her family to thrive financially. Listen in to episode 42 to find out more about Jennifer’s tale and the journey she took to get there.

Don’t forget to stop over on Twitter to say hello!

Jennifer Cable’s Bio:

Jennifer Cable is a Software Test Technician at CoverMyMeds in Columbus, Ohio. She works with a team of Software Developers and Test Engineers to deliver a quality product that meets standards for a reliable, consistent user experience.

 

Jennifer likes to help promote women and girls in the field of development by supporting Girl Develop It and Cool Tech Girls in Columbus. You can connect with me on LinkedIn or Twitter @jkcable.

 

Episode Highlights and Show Notes:

Arsalan: Hi everyone. Today, my guest is Jennifer cable. Jennifer, how are you?

Jennifer: I’m good, thank you. How are you?

Arsalan: I’m fantastic. I’m so happy to have you on the podcast, especially because you are different from all the other guests that we’ve had so far. Also, there’s something very interesting. That has happened to you. You got laid off. You were working, and you are probably pretty happy, but you are not doing development. You’re doing something else. You are passionate about it and went to college for it and then you got laid off. Then, you resurrected your career a little bit. Tell us a little more about that moment when you were laid off. What led up to it, and how were you feeling about it?

Jennifer: I was working in graphic design for a newspaper for many years doing ad design. I was very content and what I was doing. I enjoyed it, and I did not think that I could lose my job to outsourcing, but I did. During that time I felt very disappointed and I was also shocked to learn that I would not have my job anymore. At that time I felt that it was time to look for a new opportunity.

Arsalan: Was at a time that was difficult for you and your family? Perhaps you had some questions about how you’re going to manage your finances. Is that something that you went through?

Jennifer: Yes, definitely. My husband and I worry two-income family. So, it definitely had an impact on our family finances. While I did receive unemployment, it was not 100% of what we were used to. So, there were a few years where we had to tighten up her budget and make ends meet until I found full-time employment again.

Arsalan: So, you did find full-time employment, but there was a gap between the time you found full-time employment and the time you were laid off. How long was that gap?

Jennifer: That gap was probably about three years.

Arsalan: That’s a long time to go without a job. In the meantime, while you were unemployed, what did you do?

Jennifer: I was fortunate enough to be able to go back to school. Because of the way my job was outsourced, there was a federal grant program that would help pay for education for people who got laid off due to outsourcing. So, I decided that since I wasn’t working at the time, I would take advantage of that opportunity and I went back to school at Columbus State to study web development.

Arsalan: I think this is going to be an inspiring story for a lot of people who might have been laid off or might fear being laid off because of outsourcing, automation, or various reasons. Outsourcing and losing your job are facts of life. Having to look for another job is something that we all have to deal with. Although it took you three years, you were able to overcome that. Then you got this new job. How long did you work there?

Jennifer: I have been at my current job for two years now.

Arsalan: Great. But, in between, there was another layoff.

Jennifer: Yes. What I’ve been telling you up till now is after the second layoff. The first layoff was before I had the opportunity to go back to school.

Arsalan: Okay, so there was a layoff that was unexpected. Then you got another job and were laid off again. But then you weren’t able to get a job right away, so you went back to college. You took advantage of the available time that you had and you were able to transform your career and get into a more technical role. But, you’re not a developer, exactly, even though you did take software development in college. What do you do?

Jennifer: I am a software test technician. My job title would be similar to what some people might know as a manual tester or a QA specialist, meaning quality assurance. I think that role is changing right now to become a little more technical. I do more technical things, but I also do more manual testing. I’m also in the process of learning to do a little more coding. Where I work now, they focus is on Ruby and Cucumber. So I do a little of that.

Arsalan: Okay, for people who don’t know what Ruby and Cucumber are, we are not talking about the gem and the vegetable. Ruby is a programming language that you can use to do wonderful things, especially automated testing. Cucumber is a framework that uses Ruby. But, cucumber and Ruby are not your only choices. You can use other languages and frameworks.

Arsalan: It’s so important for us to realize that people want to be in the tech industry and wants to be developers and some people who think that software development is a cool industry to be in. There are a lot of people in this industry. Not everyone writes software code and not everyone is a programmer. But, they all contribute to the development of a product. So, you are critical in your organization.

Arsalan: There are people who are writing software programs and then there are people like you who are testing and making sure that they were correct. We all have our roles. Some people may be really interested in software development, but they’re not skilled at coding, yet their very detail oriented and they do a very good job at assuring quality or to do testing. Testing can be done manually, like what you’re doing, and was going to get into how you’re doing that. But, it can also be done using automation and that automation usually entails some programming.

Arsalan: So, I know that in your industry. There are people who write in Ruby and use Cucumber and other frameworks, perhaps, and they do test using some automation. But you went the other way. Was there a reason for that? Did they ask you to do it like this? Is there a reason why you’re not in the automated testing area?

Jennifer: I do a little bit of automated testing. I help run some of the Cucumber features and I help run our Regression suite, which is a group of tests that we use to ensure that there are no bugs before code is deployed. So, I do a little automated as well.

Arsalan: Okay, now let’s circle back. I want to learn a little more about you. How do you describe yourself?

Jennifer: I feel that I am a detail oriented person and that helps me greatly when I do manual or exploratory testing to ensure that I find test cases that other people may not find. I also like to investigate and dig deeper into how things work.

Arsalan: Okay, so you mentioned a few things. You mentioned exploratory testing and some people in the audience may not know what that is. Can you explain a little about the different types of testing that you have to do?

Jennifer: Sure. I do manual testing which is similar to what our users would do. Our company produces software as a service. So, we have a website that’s available to our users. So I just go in as if I were a user and test to make sure that all the buttons, links, and everything like that are working as they should. I also do something called exploratory testing, where I just go to the website and click around and try and do things that a user would do that maybe people wouldn’t think of to try and find a problem or an issue. It’s basically just being like an explorer, trying out different things in different combinations of things. I also run the Cucumber tests and our Cucumber tests Regression suite. So, those are probably the three main ones.

Arsalan: Okay, you use the term “regression suite” and “regression testing.” How would you describe those terms?

Jennifer: I would describe regression testing as a set of tests that would cover all of the things that a user would normally do to operate our website. We keep those tests; and each time a developer right some code that would change the current function of the way our website runs, we run that code against our set of tests to ensure everything runs correctly. If a test should fail, we would look into it to see if the code is causing a failure that needs to be corrected and then makes sure that that code passes all the tests before it is deployed on the website.

Arsalan: That’s an excellent description. If I were to describe it, I would say that it is a big snowball that is rolling down the hill of this project. It collects more snow along its path and gets bigger and bigger. If you can imagine the snow being new features and product improvements, what can happen is that it hits a snag or hurdle along the way and we lose some of that snow. We regress. We go back to a place where we were before. So, something used to work, but now it’s not working anymore. That’s a regression. We don’t ever want to be in that situation.

Arsalan: Every iteration, every cycle and every release we want to improve or enhance the product. So, how would we know that we are not regressing? If you had a set of criteria that could evaluate the product on every release, then you would know if you are making forward progress or if you are going back. It’s important to know that you are moving in the right direction.

Arsalan: Manual testers are very, very important. A lot of companies that I know don’t do any manual testing. They don’t like manual testers because they find that inefficient. They would like everything to be automated instead. But there’s a problem with that. Regardless of how many automated tests you write, you are never going to have an intuitive and common sense test that covers common sense, normal user scenarios in all cases. It’s impossible to do without manual testing and an intelligent and conscientious qualified human being testing your product to make sure that it works appropriately for the user, you will probably always have a product that is kind of wonky. So, I really appreciate Jennifer and all the manual testers who are doing manual testing. Sometimes it’s a thankless job because a lot of times they don’t get appreciated as much.

Arsalan: let’s get your impression, Jennifer. What do you think? Do you think you get a lot of appreciation for the work that you do?

Jennifer: Probably not as much, but thank you for those words. I agree with you that you can’t have 100% automated testing. There are some things that you must manually test. I think that is something that gets forgotten along the process. It’s very important to have some hands on human eyes looking at something and clicking through it because there might be something that you’ve overlooked. So, yes, I agree with you.

Arsalan: I think that it’s always good. If you are a startup company or someone who’s starting a new project and you’re thinking about testing, I would advise you against automated or overly automated testing initially. Start with some manual tests and figure out what you need to test.

Arsalan: Decide on your criteria and a test plan. Maybe have some written down test cases if you need them. Create your regression suite. That’s something that should happen regardless. If you are doing driven development, which means that your code is being guided by tests, then go ahead and do that, but that doesn’t really correspond to automated testing.

Arsalan: The type of automated testing that I’m talking about is something that happens after the code is written. Even if you did test driven development, that doesn’t mean that you don’t need any more tests. You should, but first start with manual tests. Figure out what you really need and how your application behaves from a user’s point of view and then sometimes you can extract that manual test case and manual test plan and automate it. You can automate some of the redundant or repetitive tasks so that it makes it more interesting for manual testers. It allows manual testers to be a little more creative if you automate the noncreative part. That’s my recommendation to new projects. A lot of people struggle with it, though. What do you think about automated testing?

Jennifer: I think I agree with some of the things that you just said. I’ve read that it’s good to have automated tests for those simple, repetitive tasks because it does free up a manual tester to go on and explore some of those other areas that might be a little more complicated. That sounds like some good advice.

Arsalan: Now, I want to talk to you about your college experience because you got a bachelor’s degree in fine arts. You were not thinking about becoming a developer or a tester. You were thinking about becoming a graphic design artist or graphic designer. You did get a job doing that, but it didn’t quite work out for you. I think it was, perhaps, the education that you received was not geared towards getting a job. Do you think there is a way to be successful in the graphic design business and have a secure, good-paying job that I’m sure you were looking for? Or, is that an industry that is in decline?

Jennifer: At the time when I got my degree, there was a demand for graphic designers and I got a job in the newspaper industry. My experience and degree were very helpful and helped me get that job. My problem was with the newspaper industry that I was working in. As you and your listeners probably know, the newspaper industry has been in a big decline since a lot of people get their news from the Internet now.

Jennifer: Print production of newspapers has since decreased. That’s the reason I was laid off from my position. I think that people in graphic design today are learning more web design skills that they use to get jobs now. I think there probably is a bit of a decrease because of the reduction in print production today since more things are being done online. I think more graphic designers are learning those web design skills that they need. For me, though, I wanted to go back and learn more web skills and backend skills.

Arsalan: So, when you went back to college, you didn’t try to do a specialization in some part of graphic design. You went into web development. That was a two-year degree that you got. Tell me about your experience going to the community college for that two-year degree. Was it hard? Did you like it? Was it worth it?

Jennifer: I found it very challenging. I still find it challenging because I came from more of a creative side. The logic side, a programming was very new and different for me. It was a challenge and at first, I really struggled with it, and sometimes I still continue to struggle with it. But, I think it is something that you can overcome. I know that when I’ve told former graphic designers that I’ve worked with that I am now doing software testing, they say that they could never do that. I think you can do it if it’s something that you want to do and you put your mind to it.

Arsalan: I’m sure that quality assurance, which is a term that we’ve heard a lot and now people like to call them testers, they are underappreciated for sure. But software testing is sometimes considered overhead by a small team that has budgetary constraints. So they’d rather hire more developers to build new features and thus, testing becomes a necessary evil.

Arsalan: There’s another approach to this where you can look at software quality as an equal or maybe more so than actual development. What your users see when they interact with your product is what really matters. Software quality assurance people or testers need to ensure that they are not putting out substandard products that people don’t want to use. That’s especially true of the manual testers.

Arsalan: The problem with automatic testing and a suite where there’s no manual testing, a lot of the times the automated tests are written by the same developers that are writing the product. So, if they have a bias or a deficiency in their thinking and they’re not thinking about a particular part of the problem, then were going to end up building a product that is not good because we’re not getting enough perspective. Having outside people that are not developers and are not thinking like developers, they can be the representatives of the users, like you, Jennifer. They could come in and use the application like a user would. Maybe you would have an insight into some of the user ability problems. I just want to stress again that manual testing is very important and many of my listeners want to be developers, but perhaps some of them may be better suited to be testers.

Arsalan: Testing is a vast field. You need testers in almost every organization. You can start off being a manual tester with your analytical and organizational skills. Perhaps you will be very good at it and ensure that your team puts out high-quality software. I interviewed Chuck from some of the podcasts that you might have listened to like JavaScript Jabber and Ruby Rogues. He was a tester. He was a manual tester just like Jennifer. Later on, he got into development and now he’s a very accomplished software developer.

Arsalan: So, there are paths out of this if that’s not something that you want to do. But I would recommend not shying away from a testing job even if you want to be a developer. This could be a path to development or this could end up being your ideal career. What do you think about that, Jennifer? Do you think testing can be a long-term career for some people?

Jennifer: Definitely. My role is a test technician. But where I work at CoverMyMeds, we have another role of test engineer and a lot of our test engineers began as developers. So, I think test engineers and test technicians are not the kinds of roles that you aspire to. It’s more like something that just kind of develops into that. The people who were previously developers have a really good understanding and knowledge of how the development side works, but then they got interested in the testing side of it.

Arsalan: Okay, so let me ask you this. When I was looking at your profile and saw your degrees, I was thinking that you were obviously motivated enough to go to college and learn. You got an associate’s degree in web development, not web design. Is that right?

Jennifer: Correct.

Arsalan: Did you try to get a job as a developer, or was that something that you didn’t want to do?

Jennifer: I really wasn’t sure what I wanted to do with my web development associate’s degree. Since an associate’s degree is a two-year degree, you get a little taste of a lot of different things. I learned some HTML. I learned a little bit of Java. I learned a low bit of systems networking. So it’s just kind of like a taste of a little bit of everything. I really wasn’t sure which direction I wanted to go. I didn’t know if I wanted to be a developer yet. What helped me was there’s an organization called Girl, Develop IT, which has a chapter in Columbus, Ohio. They gave me some direction and had some resources and mentorship that I used. I just kind of stumbled into the testing part of it just by starting to send out resumes. I was just looking for an intern type position or something like that where I could just get my feet wet, I get into a company, and just start taking it from there.

Arsalan: And you did get an intern position for a few months and after that, they like your work and offered you a full-time position.

Jennifer: Yes.

Arsalan: That’s a really good way for somebody to get into a full-time position. If you want to be a full-time software developer, a tester, a business analyst, or any of the various subfields within software development, you don’t necessarily have to be a programmer. One of the better ways of doing that is to become an intern because it’s low risk for the company and they generally higher lots of interns. They don’t have to pay you as much. They don’t have to give you benefits. So, they would probably hire you without scrutinizing you too much.

Arsalan: Once you’re there, you get to work as part of the team and you can show your dedication. They’ll probably give you a couple of little projects. If you do well and there is a need for a full-time developer or a tester, they will look at you. That’s a fantastic way of getting your foot in the door. How did you get that internship? Did you apply through a portal? Did you know somebody? What did you do?

Jennifer: I found out about CoverMyMeds through Girl, Develop IT. CoverMyMeds was a sponsor of Girl, Develop IT. When I went to the Girl, Develop IT meetings, I was wondering who CoverMyMeds were. So, I went to their website and saw that they had different positions. I took a chance and submitted my resume online. They contacted me and were interested. They actually created the internship position for me because they didn’t have anything in a test engineer or test technician position. So, I was very fortunate that they gave me the opportunity. I think it helped that I was a nontraditional student, a woman in the field who is changing careers. I had work experience also, but being an older intern with something new and different. It was a great experience and I’m very fortunate that they gave me the opportunity and help me out that way, which later led to a full-time position.

Arsalan: Are you the only person in that position within the organization?

Jennifer: Yes, I am.

Arsalan: Okay. Do you think this is working out for them and that they might be expanding? My guess is that if you’re doing a good job, then they might want to start a manual testing department.

Jennifer: Yes, I think that is definitely something that would grow. Our company is growing a lot and I could see that as a possibility in the future.

Arsalan: Let’s talk about when you started your first day at work as a manual tester, perhaps starting with your internship days. Was it hard for you to be accepted because you are a woman and a nontraditional tech person? You were a developer because you came from another field. In most companies, we have a heavy developer culture. Software developers and other demographics are placed above others, unfortunately. Did you struggle with that? Was it a transition for you? How was it?

 

Important Links

• Joe Colantonio: Test Talks
• Ministry of Testing
• QA or the Highway Conference
• Testing Curator Blog
• Girl, Develop IT
• Cool Tech Girls
• JavaScript Jabber
• Ruby Rogues
• CoverMyMeds

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